The Invisible Elephant: Mental Health in the Workplace with Nick McEwan-Hall | Episode 20

Mental health expert Nick discusses the critical importance of mental wellbeing in workplace settings, particularly in high-risk industries like construction where suicide rates dramatically exceed physical workplace fatalities.

• Mental health is often the "invisible elephant in the room" – recognized as an issue but not understood in scale
• Workplaces typically have extensive systems for physical safety but lack equivalent protocols for mental wellbeing
• Creating "alert communities" means training people to recognize mental health signs and respond appropriately
• Staying connected with someone experiencing mental health challenges has immense value
• Leaders should model openness about their own mental state to create psychological safety for team members
• We often already discuss mental health without realizing it – stress, sleep issues, family challenges
• Mental health should be treated with the same priority as physical health conditions
• The R U OK? initiative provides a simple but powerful starting point for meaningful conversations
• For those struggling, approach mental health like physical health – seek professional support
• If initial help-seeking doesn't work, keep trying – medicarementalhealth.gov.au offers comprehensive resources

Ready to take the next step? Visit https://www.scratchie.com/book-a-demo to see how Scratchie can help you recognise and reward safe behaviour on your projects. The future of construction safety starts here.

Chapters

• 0:00 Nick's Journey into Mental Health Education
• 5:05 Mental Health vs Physical Safety in Workplaces
• 10:58 The Complexities of Discussing Mental Health
• 19:01 Supporting Someone Through Mental Health Struggles
• 27:33 Understanding Suicide Prevention Approaches
• 35:15 Creating Supportive Workplace Cultures
• 42:32 Leadership's Role in Mental Health Support
• 47:38 Finding Help and Available Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello everyone. Nick, welcome, and I'd love to hear a bit about your background, your bio in your background, if you don't mind.

Speaker 2: 0:07

Yeah, sure, thanks for having me. My background I get to tell this pretty often every time I run a course, you know, introduce myself. So I've got a bit of a spill. But I always tell people I started life wanting to be a secondary school teacher and that's true. I did so. I went off to uni and did secondary teaching and it was in year three of that four year degree that I went on a practical placement and I met year nine students, and year nine students sent me out of teaching for good is the way that the joke goes. But there's some truth to that. You know, at the time, as a relatively young person and, on reflection, not that much older than year nine, yeah, I just thought that maybe working in a school environment wasn't for me, but education and teaching definitely was. So from there I kind of worked with young people. I've worked with all sorts of different organizations, much smaller but always in that education and training space, and as I look back, always with the mental health theme present in some way shape or form.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Yeah, that's my background and why is that?

Speaker 2: 1:08

Yeah, I mean, as I look back, I think possibly my decision to not finish that degree might've been to do with being anxious about that and how that might look.

Speaker 2: 1:13

But I think even my first job out of uni was working with young adults with disabilities, and some of them were physical disabilities, some of them were sort of psychosocial disabilities, as we would call them now, and I didn't really know that at the time. I knew about disability but I didn't really know about that mental health piece. And so, as I look back, I think, yeah, a lot of those folks that we were working with did face challenges with mental health, whether that was their own sort of state or trying to fit into the world and not really doing that very well. And I should actually clarify that it's not that they weren't fitting into the world very well, it's that the world wasn't fitting around them very well and it was stressful for them, right. And then I look at corporate environments and the stresses and stuff that come with that and all of those different sorts of places that I've worked in. Yeah, there's been a mental health theme of some shape or form all the way through, whether I knew it or not, whether I knew it or not.

Speaker 1: 2:03

I mean this is a really interesting one. I was going to say mental health, at least in the construction industry. I come from that industry, so I was going to say it's the elephant in the room, but it's almost like the invisible elephant in the room, because the elephant in the room implies that people already know it's an issue but just won't talk about it. But people don't realize how. I think they know it's a problem but they don't know the scale of it. I heard recently that there's six to nine times, depending on which stat you look at six to nine times more fatality by suicide in the construction industry than with bricks falling on your head. It's a massive issue and everyone focuses on the bricks falling on your head, probably not because they're uh, I mean, we can talk to this, but possibly not because they don't care, they don't know what to do yeah yeah, so yeah, I'd love to hear about that because I think a lot of listeners would be going.

Speaker 1: 2:59

I know it's an issue. I didn't know it's the scale of like six to nine times. I know three people who've killed themselves. It's dark but it has to be spoken about. In my company, in my career. I don't know anyone who had a fatality at work.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? I think I live in South Bank and as I look out my window, here there's a big building going up and there's people over there working at heights and things. And I often think about you know, if they none of those people would turn up to that work site on day one and everyone just kind of goes yeah, up, you go, you know, get up there and do what you do. There'd be induction, there'd be training, there'd be risk assessments, there'd be all these things. And if there was a new bit of equipment or something, people would be trained on it before they're allowed to use it and all this sort of stuff. And so we have all these protocols in place which are really oriented around physical health and safety and physical first aid.

Speaker 2: 3:56

But what I think a lot of organizations and people and teams miss is that by bringing a human into that environment, you're also making that choice. That is a, without being crass about it, that is a piece of equipment that that business is choosing to bring on site. And so if there isn't that same kind of approach of well, how do we have this person here safely, how do we do that? Then of course things are going to go wrong. You know, of course they're going to go wrong because that alertness is not built up as much as it is around physical first aid. But then you hear the stories and you're like, well, yeah, it's definitely happening and I think most people understand that it is. But I think that's kind of goes to the core of it.

Speaker 2: 4:35

Sometimes, and as I work with different organizations, you see the ones that do it really well, because they're talking to me even when I go in there as a visitor or something. They'll say, okay, cool, here's our. You know how are you feeling today, what's going on? You know how are you? They're talking to me about how I am. I'm just there for an hour, you know, but they're doing that from the get-go and it really sets that kind of culture.

Speaker 2: 4:54

So I think people are aware of this stuff, but perhaps they just don't know how it shows, how it presents, and, if they notice it, what to do. And so we kind of revert to this idea of, well, the safe way to deal with that is to not talk about it in case I upset someone, or in case I make it worse, or in case it's not my business, or in case HR doesn't like it and so we revert that way and we feel like that's the safer way to go. But sadly we know that's the unsafe way to to go. The safer way to go is to talk about it and to kind of shine light onto it.

Speaker 1: 5:27

Yeah, and I think we mentioned in in the previous call that my kind of take on. I think in the last 10 years it's been talked more about it, especially again from a builder's perspective. We are men, we like concrete and steel, we're all kind of asbergers in a way, and so we can't really talk about our feelings very easily and I think the last 10 years at least seems to have pathologized that, to say that is a problem and the more you talk, the better it is. I forget where I read this, but I read a recent study saying, basically finding that that wasn't the issue, that wasn't the answer, I should say, and and the fact that a lot of men are quite happy to not have to express their feelings and get nervous with the con, with the thought of expressing their feelings. I wonder if I wonder if talking about it is does help or not yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it, as you're?

Speaker 2: 6:24

as you're saying that I I think about my building site over there, who I have nothing to do with except for observing it from a window. But there's a supermarket next to where they're building and this morning I went over to get some milk and as I was walking over, there's all the, all the trainees are turning up to work and they're talking to each other like at the lights about how their kids are giving them the shits and how all this stuff's going on. The traffic was awful and you know they're really tired and all that sort of stuff. And I'm like, yeah, that's that's your mental health you're talking about, that's your well-being, that's how you are and you are talking about it. But why? Where's that point where we go? Oh, we can't talk about that because that's mental health or that's mental illness or whatever it might be.

Speaker 2: 7:05

I think we're doing it more than we might give credit for and we have more of the skills, I think, than we maybe give ourselves credit for, because if we can tell the person that we work with that, yeah, we're not feeling great because we're tired, or we're not feeling great because we've had an argument at home or we're not feeling great because you haven't slept well for a week, because you've got a new kid like a new baby. We're already doing it. So where is that blocker? No-transcript. I do that again and it's a fair point. You know it's a fair point.

Speaker 2: 7:53

So, yeah, I think talking about it and not being isolated is one of the ways through, and I don't think it needs to be. Do we talk or don't we talk? It could be be we do talking and we do other things as well, so what else could we do that allows people to show up to this conversation in a way that they feel like they can and they feel skilled and comfortable in? Yeah, but the talking thing, yeah, it's an interesting one, I think. I think people do do it more than we give credit for, but it's about how they're received, you know yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 8:23

And there's someone very close to me and he has had mental health issues for a long time and really decades, and he's very, very good at expressing himself. He's one of the best people at expressing themselves that I know and very sensitive and yet goes through these troughs and you see him go through them and you're like mate, and recently there was always drugs and alcohol involved in previous times and he's worked so hard on himself and he's been to South Pacific Private, which is apparently incredible. That's north of Sydney, yeah right, and so he's done that. Anyway, he went through a trough last time, no drugs, no alcohol, so he's managed to sort of bridge that trough. It was still terrible for him but he and I'm just thinking I know that's one example and there's many examples, but hopefully, talking about individual sort of cases, maybe people can relate to that- yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:28

But expressing his problem wasn't the issue. And I said to him after he came through a trough and he's out the other side. I was like, is there anything that I could have done differently?

Speaker 2: 9:38

Because you sort of feel helpless as someone very close to someone who goes through this and he said not really Like I had to go through it and, um, he knew himself well enough because that I don't know, if you can talk to anything like that, what an individual can do, um, apart from be there, you know yeah, well, I think I think number one is to not to not undervalue how important just being there and staying connected to someone who is going through a trough is, because I think sometimes, when we're just that's who we are and that's how we work and that's how we support people, that's just how we get out of bed in the morning, right, and we miss how important that is for people. And the reason we miss that and the reason I'm so confident about that is because I know that we still live in a world where people would see that happening and kind of go, no, like that's too much, or like you know they need to. If only they did this or if they looked after themselves better. That you know, like this judgment thing, that kind of happens and we do have people who see people struggling and they kind of just turn their heads away and they don't help, right. So I have this kind of core belief when somebody does show up and they do stay connected, that that has immense value because we still live in that world, right. So that's number one. I think that's important. I think number two it's such an individual sport, this one. You know, like everyone goes through things so individually and so differently.

Speaker 2: 10:58

So I tend to go back to fundamentals of what we know about well-being, you know, and well-being is a big, big, broad topic, but connection is one of those. You know people need connection, they need support, they need all of that sort of stuff. And so that story you told me is like well, tick, that's there, right, and yeah, I think some people. Then you layer on well, how do they like to communicate? How do they? How do they? What skills do they have to communicate?

Speaker 2: 11:21

You know, and in my experience, people who do go through sort of chronic mental health stuff over a long period of time, it's very unlikely that they haven't received some help and support for that. And that help and support, that talk-based therapy, is really helping people to understand what's going on for themselves. So when they understand it, they're able to talk about it better. So when you say your friend is really clear communicator, knows exactly what's going on, can tell you about it, they're able to talk about it better. So when you say your friend is really clear communicator, knows exactly what's going on, can tell you about it, it kind of doesn't surprise me, because people who go through this stuff have to learn that stuff, and so when they can communicate to you and that's a wonderful thing, and if we go back a step in our conversation about, well, why aren't people talking if they have all these skills?

Speaker 2: 12:00

I think it's often about the response they get. So when someone says I'm struggling, you know my mental health is in the can this week, you know, if that person that they're disclosing that to doesn't sort of reward that with some care and empathy and non-judgment, then it kind of shuts down the supports that they've got available. So I think it is an individual sport. But I think if you're close to the person, like you did, saying to the person when you're unwell, what can I do, you know, what would you like me to do? And I think it's reasonably important to do that in a period where the person's well and they're able to tell you, you know, like that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 12:34

I see a lot.

Speaker 2: 12:35

Yeah, yeah. When someone's in it and you say what do you need, they're like I literally don't know.

Speaker 1: 12:39

You, I don't know, I can't, don't want to see you. Yeah, that's right, they're in their own trouble. Yeah, and I've been there once, you know, and when I was 18. And I remember my, you know, at the school I went to, they said talk to the school psychologist. And I was like no, yeah, war, no, I'm not going to say anything. And then it was my parents. And then it was my parents. I went to my parents and said, you know, this is early 90s, so it's like depression was still taboo back then.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Yeah, you know talking to them saying there's something wrong, I don't know what it is, but it's really not good. And for them saying they didn't know. So they were just like you're, everything's good, like you're fine, like'll be okay. They didn't realize it's quite a dangerous period, you know, yeah, yeah, they found out later and my dad said I had no idea you know, and so yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:33

So that's. I guess what we've done in the last 10 years and tell me if I'm right here is we've kind of it's out of the taboo and it's like can now accept that it's a thing and it's just like talking about you had the flu or you had, yeah, you know, some kind of chronic injury which is so good. I think that's one thing, that's, it's a clear win to be able to say yeah I was smashed with depression last year.

Speaker 1: 13:58

I'm good now, but man, it was hard. Something like that, yeah, great, so out of taboo. But then it seems as though we might have, we, we might find ourself in the place where government seems to be treating it like another injury. Now you can if you break your leg, you can see that someone's broken their leg. If you have a mental health injury, you can't see it. So, of course, there's going to be real mental health injuries. There's going to be fake ones. They're all going to be mixed up together. Yeah, yeah, um, and meanwhile the, the government, is funding everything. How do we? And that's ultimately not going to end well, yeah, so what do you have to say about that?

Speaker 2: 14:39

I think there's a lot in there. I think. I think I think you're right. I think we have had so much of a dropping of the taboo kind of thing we're allowed to talk about this sort of stuff. I'm not sure if it was our conversation we had the other day or another conversation I had, and I won't quite get this right, but the conversation went yeah, it's good that we've done that.

Speaker 2: 14:56

But that sort of openness, that sort of awareness, that sort of lack of taboo shouldn't stop the amount of support we give to people. So just saying to people look, yeah, you can tell me everything. That's great, it's fantastic, like an underlying fantastic, right, it's really, really great. But that's not where we should stop. Where we should go to next is like cool, what can I do? How can I help you? What do you need? And it's the same as if it was a physical illness, right? So if someone had a physical illness, you'd go oh, look at that. You know like, okay, I can see you've broken your ankle, what can I do for you? You know you wouldn't just go. I can see you've broken your ankle, you can tell me if you break your ankle ever again. That'd be great, you know. We actually then say what do I need to do? How can I help you place? We might adjust the job, all of those sorts of things. So I think, yeah, I think there's a little way to go, which is how do we actually get good at supporting people when they disclose stuff. Now that we're in a space where people feel like they can disclose, that's great, like taboo's gone or not gone, but it's much, much more reduced now. But I think we need to focus on the next bit, which is like okay, so now, what do I do and how can I help you?

Speaker 2: 16:02

I think the other thing you said there was you know, if someone has a physical illness, you can see it, but if someone has a mental health problem, you can't. And I always like to gently challenge that when I hear it, because we can learn what mental health and mental illness looks like. We can pick up signs and symptoms right. We can actually say that person doesn't look like themselves, they don't seem like themselves, they've changed, and we can observe signs. So whenever I hear that, I kind of go is that right? Because I spend most of my week teaching people how to spot the signs right.

Speaker 2: 16:32

So I think we have to challenge that a little bit too and say, well, yeah, we can see signs, we just need to know what we're looking for. Right, we just need to know what we're looking for and we're not going to always see it. But right, we just need to know what we're looking for and we're not going to always see it. But when we know what to look for, we're going to see more, right, like when we know what to look for. And it's just the same as any job. You know any kind of work that we might do. When you first start, you know the basics and you'll see things, but you don't know what you're looking at. But the better you get, the how do we support? Right. So we want to see it and notice it and be proactive about that. We want to follow it with the support.

Speaker 2: 17:10

But we also want to gently challenge this idea that mental health stuff can't be seen, because I think what happens for some people is they hide behind that, they go. I haven't seen any signs, so how could I help that person? And it's like I feel like in that sort of space, the burden should sit on us, who are well to take that burden of well, I need to learn that. I need to learn that, as opposed to pushing the burden back to the person who's unwell, to say, oh well, if you told me or if you showed me a sign, I'd help you. It doesn't quite work, yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:39

Well, okay, can I push back on that?

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah, go for it sometimes you like. Okay, I'll give you an example. There was a friend of mine who two years ago killed himself and he had we had dinner together three weeks. Four weeks prior one of my other friends who was also at the table at dinner had said had specifically said look, we're all friends here. If anyone here has any mental health issues or anything like that, let me know, because I cannot handle. She had someone close to her die. She's like I can't handle it anymore. So just let me know, is that okay? And it was like it was crazy how clear that conversation was and three or four weeks later he took his own life. So for those of us who were close to him, you can't help but feel what could I have done?

Speaker 2: 18:37

Yeah, of course. What could I have done?

Speaker 1: 18:39

Yeah. The other way to look at it is we are all I am the master of this body. I get to say what happens to this body in that sense, and only me, when it comes to this sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, I make that decision. He decided that. Right, it doesn't matter what I said, whether I said what doesn't matter what I said, if he has decided that, he decides that, I think if you don't, because ultimately that's true and if otherwise you end up just feeling responsible for someone else's decision.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, sorry to hear that that happened. It's terrible and I spent a lot of my working life working in this sort of space and trying to prevent suicide and trying to respond after something happens. You're right Now. You know we're talking. I think the other thing that sometimes happens with these mental health conversations is we start to talk in absolutes, and it's a handy way to talk because it opens up possibility, right. So it's handy to sort of say you know, if we can spot signs, we'll see signs and we can respond to signs. And that sort of challenges this idea that people don't show signs, right. But where it falls down is well, some people don't show signs, you know, some people don't. They really don't. Yeah, they really don't. The majority do.

Speaker 2: 19:59

But then there's other factors around. It's like well, was there somebody else around at the time when that person was showing a sign? You know the timeline you're describing. You're describing three or four weeks. Everything can change for someone in that time. And so when you're at that dinner party, everyone's fine, genuinely fine, not an issue, no distress, nothing. But three weeks down the track that can be different and that's challenging. It's really hard and we look back and we go well, what's the dot point, what's the timeline? Oh yeah, I had dinner dinner three weeks ago and that's the only thing we see and we don't get to see other things that were, that were happening for that person, because we weren't connected with them during that time or we didn't have an opportunity to see the signs that might have been there. So it's it's hard because we look back and we're looking for data, we're looking for information, we're looking for facts and sometimes we come a bit short because we're not that person right, so we can't spot everything.

Speaker 2: 20:50

But alertness, I suppose one of my messages is, if we have alert communities that are more alert, more often, more reliably alert, then people who do show signs are more likely to have those signs recognized and responded to. So you know, it's a hard one. It's a really hard one because, you're right, Some people will, you know, go from distressed to, you know, lost their life through suicide or by suicide, incredibly rapidly, like in a day, you know, and if they're on their own or if they're in a regional town or they're in a rural area or whatever, there's just not that network around them to support. So I guess whenever I finish a course with a group, I always say the work starts now. When you walk out of here, the next conversation you have with someone should really show that you're cool about this stuff, or it should really flag to them that you understand it, you're not judgmental. So they do find themselves in that trough that you described earlier. Then they go oh, that guy. Yeah, Nick and James talk about this. Really well, I could probably call them if I needed to. So it's sort of that alert community stuff starts now.

Speaker 2: 21:57

And you know I'll share a little story I had from a paramedic. You know where we're teaching them about this stuff, which blows my mind. You know that I can teach the paramedic more about mental health than they might have had in their training. But anyway, you know they said listen, it's a health thing that we're talking about. You know, mental health is a health thing.

Speaker 2: 22:16

And he said our whole health system is set up to influence outcomes, not guarantee them. And I was like, wow, you know that's true. And you think about the infrastructure we have around health in this country. We're very lucky with what we have. It's not enough, but we're very lucky with what we've got. You know, we've got paramedics, we've got, you know, hospitals. We've got a public health system, we've got specialists, we've got all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 22:42

And he said, listen, we fly people through literally, pick them up in helicopters and fly them to hospitals when they're having heart attacks and strokes, and everyone who's there does everything they can, all the skills, all the experience, all of that sort of stuff. And unfortunately, some people still don't make it through. We're dealing with a health state, and I think that's not to sort of make us feel negative about it, but I but I think, in mental health space, a good place to sort of think and operate and work from is a realistic space, and that's a realistic picture of what we're dealing with. We're dealing with a health state, right? So yeah, within that realism, we have to allow ourselves some space as well to kind of go well, we did do everything we can do, yeah, with the schools we had in the time we had in the, in the context we found ourselves in. You know, it's it's a really tough one.

Speaker 1: 23:32

It's really, really hard there's a you probably might know this stat, but um, they went to um pylon 69 in golden gate bridge in, uh, san francisco. Pylon 69 is famous, uh, because that's where the jumpers jump from, yeah, yeah. And so apparently, over time, some of them survive I think there's a small percent that survive and obviously it's it's a definitely a suicide attempt. I mean it's a pretty good chance, very, very good chance, that you'll die. So they found the survivors and they said to them what do you think? And there was some crazy high percent of them said I'm so glad it didn't work.

Speaker 1: 24:21

So there's this momentary feeling of there's no escape. This is the only way out. And either side of that you get back into your rational head and you're like no, no, no, life is a struggle. We have downtimes. That was a downtime. I can get through it, and I'm sure everyone who's been close to someone who's committed suicide would have a similar thing.

Speaker 1: 24:41

It's like one last conversation. I would love to have one last conversation because to this individual, who is quite adventurous, I would say get off the radar, get off the map, get a one-way ticket to Africa. Like, find out what you want to do to help a group of people Just go, no plans, just go, because what's the alternative? You're going to kill yourself. Okay, go Do it and like see what happens, because it you know. I don't know if you've ever read Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning Meaning and purpose. It's like if all of it, if in a certain state of mind we feel like we're in a rut or we feel like we can't get out, you just get yourself out to, physically, another place. I would love to have that conversation with you.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Know, I'd be incredible, wouldn't that yeah, I haven't heard that particular story before about. This is about san francisco, the golden gate bridge, but it makes so much sense. You know, we one of the things that when someone is experiencing thoughts of suicide and wanting to end their life, one of the interventional steps is actually to talk to them, and I wouldn't suggest people do this without training. But one of the things that we do is talk to them about their anchors to life, and this is stuff that they've got in their life that is good, you know. So it might be family or pets, or a career or an artistic practice that they really love, or a holiday they've got planned or whatever it is. So we kind of anchor people back to life, which is realistic, right. So in that moment, like you described, right now it doesn't feel like I have any of that. Really, they probably can't even think about those things. So one of the things we do is talk to them about that and we sort of build safety for them around that state that they're currently in by anchoring them back to the things that in their life that are meaningful for them and I I think I used the word good before, but meaningful for them. You know goods arbitrary, goods judgmental, but you know we talk to them about like what have you got here? You know what what's here. You know you've got maybe a partner or a family or a a new, like a dog that you love or a car that you just love tinkering with, or like whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 26:48

That's part of the process of helping someone de-escalate out of that sort of state of of feeling suicidal. And one of the key things we know about, about this state, is when we ask people, you know, do you want your life to end? They'll say no, I don't want that, you know. So the question is well, what do they want? And it's, it's an, it's an absence or a reduction in that distress that they're feeling in the moment. Right, so you know, you described it really well before. If we summarize suicide, which is always complicated, it's always complex, but you know, it's this overwhelming distress that they just don't know how to fix, you know. And so it's sort of like this maladaptive kind of strategy that moves them to think about well, if I'm not around anymore, then I won't feel this distress, and of course, that's not what they want, but it's the only way through it. So when we talk to them about staying connected and anchored to life. That's what helps people stay safe in that moment, and those skills are really easy to learn. They're quite easy to learn I mean full-on topic but we've got good models for that. We've got good evidence base that says, well, this is how you can help someone. So, yeah, it's an interesting one.

Speaker 2: 27:50

It reminds me of I think it might've been Perth, I can't remember in WA, somewhere. It was fairly recent, and someone suicided and what they found out was that they spent 24 hours before they took their life in a car park in their car by themselves. And what this kind of news reporting was aiming for was this community was like we want to put an emergency phone in that car park. Why can't we do that? So it's sort of like that's a great strategy, right, if we know that there's? So, like the Golden Gate Bridge, there's a particular location. There is signage at that location, from what I understand. Oh, there is.

Speaker 2: 28:26

And there's a phone signage at that location, from what I understand. Oh, there is, and there's a phone. Yeah, exactly. So it's sort of yeah, it's about what can we do. What can we do? How can we structure safety?

Speaker 2: 28:35

And from a physical built environment perspective as well, it's really interesting. How do we build safety into, into our public spaces, because there are inherent dangers in buildings, there are inherent dangers in this sort of stuff. So, you know, you know, how do we find that balance between not allowing people to experience a beautiful view but also making sure that it's safe? Yeah, it's an interesting topic, it's quite fascinating. But, yeah, anchoring people back to what's good for them in their life, I think is a good place, and that's where well-being starts. You know, I'm doing a whole lot of stuff for R U OK though next week, and a lot of people are talking about well, can we talk about well-being? And when we talk about well-being, we talk about looking at gratitude and what we have and how we experience the world and what works for us, and it's kind of curious to me that that's what we do when we're trying to talk to someone who's thinking about ending their life. We talk about those fundamental, basic things and it really does help provide safety.

Speaker 1: 29:32

What are the stats on R? U OK Day? I mean, I love the concept and, okay, it's not one day, but it is kind of like a training day for us to sort of ask that question. So in that sense, just full credit. How's it gone Like? Has it helped at all or Are you okay, dave?

Speaker 2: 29:49

Yeah, I think it has. I think it has. I mean, even a few years ago, are you okay, dave?

Speaker 2: 29:54

changed their messaging to sort of say this is something you can ask every day, because you know, and when they did that I was like, yeah, because people think, oh, it's not just this one day, right, and of course that's right. So I think, as one of those kind of conversation starters, as a kind of a place I'm thinking about the four or five events I'm running next week for different clients, and what I know about that is that there'll be people in those rooms who've heard about our UIK Day every year, because they always stop when they talk about it, but that might be the environment in which they could ask a question or they could say I've always wondered about this, you know, and that's the context. So it sets the scene a little bit for people to kind of go yeah, I can ask that question, it's relevant today, I'll ask it, whereas they may not feel that in other spaces.

Speaker 2: 30:38

So I think it has helped. I think it has helped, but you know, it's it's, it's a tool, it's a tool in a tool belt. It's not a whole thing.

Speaker 1: 30:46

I definitely think it's helped. I mean it's the power of the question and it's teaching those of us who are not psych trained to say that is a good question to ask. And if that alone comes out of that whole day, like I've had it asked to me and I'm sure I've asked people before and when it, you know, I mean we've all heard the R? U OK Day, I mean we've all heard the R?

Speaker 1: 31:06

U OK Day, yeah, and when someone says to you, are you OK? It feels nice. Actually it's like they I know that that's the day and that's the promotion and stuff, but they're genuinely caring about me right now. So it's like, and to answer yep, fine, thanks for asking, but it's all good. So it's like it's one of those great initiatives, I think I agree, yeah, I think I agree.

Speaker 2: 31:25

I hear story after story of people who you know. I spend two days teaching people mental health first aid skills and here's a model and here's how you do it. You know big, chunky model and you can have big long conversations. But I hear story after story of someone literally checking in going, hey, bob, are you okay? Like you don't see yourself today. And Bob goes, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, you know. But actually that's enough for Bob to go home that night, make a call, maybe do a bit of research, maybe look at the Beyond Blue website, maybe book an appointment. And then when they follow up, bob will say, actually, yeah, you were right. I really appreciate that check-in Totally. Yeah, goodwill is goodwill. Right, it's not just a tokenistic thing. No, exactly Not tokenistic. That's the point.

Speaker 1: 32:05

People know when you're being tokenistic thing. I think you know. No, exactly not tokenistic.

Speaker 2: 32:07

That's the point. People know when you're being tokenistic it's a simple, beautiful question really yeah, yeah, and I think people know, don't they like? I know, when people have asked me like are you okay? Like I, sometimes I get the feeling like they're just checking the box or they're just ticking off and I may make that choice to say, yeah, I'm fine, you know, when I'm not because there's something about the way that they've done it, that I go on.

Speaker 1: 32:29

True, you know, like-. What's that German saying? Der Ton macht die Musik. The tone makes the music.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Yeah Well, that's so true, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 32:36

Yeah, I love that, but that's the thing, isn't it? So I think maybe R U OK Day gets a bit of a bad rap on the day, because everyone's like, oh, it's not the only day you should ask. And they're right, that's true. But how else do we teach people how to do it if we don't have a big day and we don't have a focus and we don't have those sorts of things right? So, particularly those people who are not going to put their hand up and say I would like to learn how to ask people if they're okay. You know like it goes right back to the start of our conversation, doesn't it? It's like, well, yeah, put their hand up to be vulnerable? Probably not, maybe, but probably not.

Speaker 1: 33:08

Yeah, so you might be aware that I co-founded a company called Scratchy, and so that's about recognition and self-determination theory in the workplace. So it's an app that well, it improves mental wellbeing, because self-determination theory is that, yeah, autonomy, competence, relatedness. What we want to do is to build in a question or two, not a survey, that's boring, but something that's a couple of questions every now and then. What sort of questions would would work? You know, yeah, that to sort of sense how people are over time, longitudinally, kind of something that's easy. We're thinking all about the person, not about some academic paper or something that's easy. We're thinking all about the person, not about some academic paper or something. It's got to be something that they can respond to, like the are you okay? Question.

Speaker 2: 33:56

Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways that this isn't there and, again, because it's so individual, some people are going to respond to one question and others won't. So I think the first thing is to kind of ask it in a few different ways. You know kind of a few different ways. Yeah, you could just. I mean, if we're going into, are you okay, today, next week, it might be something that pops up and says, hey, it's this this week's, are you okay? You know, we want to check in and see how are you yeah?

Speaker 2: 34:19

right, Are you Like? Are you? And then maybe just addressing some of those questions. Is it one to five or binary?

Speaker 2: 34:26

or what would it be? Yeah, I don't know. I think one to five is all right. Or you could sort of say to them you know, if you don't know, if you're okay, well, here's maybe a few ways to think about it. You know. So you know, if you cast your mind back, you know the last three months, you know what have you felt in the last three months. You know, and was is three months. So kind of try to track that change bit. You know, that's the thing. All of the diagnostic tools that we would use, you know we use over time so we can track shifts and scores and stuff like that. So it is a kind of a longer, longer kind of thing. But I think, just asking them if they're okay, or even just asking them to reflect on whether they're okay or if they're not okay or if they need some support, sometimes it just straight out hey, how are you today? Do you need some support today?

Speaker 1: 35:09

yeah, is there an equivalent test, like an iq kind of test that like is there a, a test that's been accepted by the psych community for determining someone's mental well-being, that we can kind of like not seek the whole test, but ask questions, pull questions out of that?

Speaker 2: 35:27

yeah, I mean, there's lots of different diagnostic tools that professionals would use. Yeah, absolutely, and they're used in clinical practice, to kind of get a sense of Is there? Like a common one.

Speaker 2: 35:37

Yeah, one that comes to mind is the K10. The K10, it's a set of I think it's actually 10 questions or so. It's not long, and it asks someone to kind of rate on a scale, a ranking kind of scale. It would give a score basically on how they're feeling and it would give you an indicator at the end to say, well, that that score that you've gotten indicates that something might be going on, you know, and that's what it does. It says something's going on. It doesn't sort of say you're depressed, you know. It says this might be likely.

Speaker 2: 36:04

And it does need more conversation because everyone's some individual, right. So if someone scores low on that score on that tool doesn't mean that they have a mental illness, it's. It means that maybe there's something we should talk about, right. So then they, they talk that through with the talk-based therapist, a counselor, psychologist, whatever. So there are those sorts of questions, absolutely, that you could kind, could kind of use as a starting point, but always giving people the option to kind of go actually yeah, like if they're doing it on the app, they could say actually yeah, it'd be great if someone could check in with me today and let someone do that. You know that sort of thing, or you need some support. Here's five different phone numbers that you could call, or here's a website or whatever it might be. Just giving people options and ways into that conversation, I think, is probably an important way to go.

Speaker 1: 36:54

Yeah, that's good. And what do you think of? So? You train organizations in how to spot mental health and those sorts of things proactive kind of things. What are your thoughts of apps that help recognition and reward and you know that in the workplace Do you think that's? What do you think of that generally? Yeah, I like it. Toothless Tiger or Helpful or yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:20

Look, I think everything that we can do to support people being as well as they could be at work is a great thing and, like we've been talking about, it's going to that's going to really work for some people and some people are going to be like I hate that app. That's not my thing. So again, it's sort of like it's not a one size fits all thing, but I think, around the mental health stuff it's about, if we think about workplaces, again we've got this individual who might be there, who's struggling. If they're in a workplace that has a culture that is not signaling to them every minute of the day that if they actually disclose that they've got something going on, that will be okay, then the likelihood of them giving us that data in any format is really low, whether it's an app or a conversation or whatever. So I think we have to think about culture and I think those sorts of reward and recognition programs really help shape and build culture right.

Speaker 2: 38:10

So you know, we should reward the behavior we want, and that's in this situation. It's we should reward when someone says I'm not okay, I'm struggling a little bit. We should reward that with non-judgment and care and support. And then we should also reward. When somebody at work asks somebody else how they're going, and they mean it. You know that it's a meaningful interaction. It's's when they've spotted a sign, maybe, and they've gone. Oh, you're right, like we should reward that as well.

Speaker 1: 38:35

Yeah, yeah, this is good, so we need both sides going, I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we can do that because we've got this thing called recommendation engine where we're recommending to managers, managers, and of course there's we've got to thread the needle on privacy and stuff, because there's certain amounts of privacy that are sort of sacrosanct and other times you actually need the information and you need to pass it to the right person to be able to do something. So it's like it's a real fine line. Yeah, but to be with our recommendation engine, we're recommending to managers who should be rewarded, but we can also recommend to managers who should be rewarded, but we can also recommend to managers who should be. Actually, how are you going? Sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Yep, so that's something that we can roll out for sure, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:19

Yeah, and just making sure that if you're giving those leaders that recommendation to reach out to somebody, that they have the skills to do it, because you can say to someone you should go and talk to Bob. But if they go, do I do that? Like totally it's pointless. We're not pointless but it's tricky. So, yeah, I think there's, there's that sort of that, that bit too. It's like, well, yeah, we need to know how to do that, as much as the fact that we do need to do it, but we need to know how as well, and just a little bit of skill around that stuff. Or saying, you know, I don't know how to do it, but you know my colleague here, they know how to do it. Like maybe we could do it together. Or you know, maybe I could get somebody else to do it. You know, I can think of many times when the person's manager is definitely not the person that should engage that conversation yeah, because maybe they've just gone through performance management last week or maybe they're part of Exactly yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:10

So again, we need that alert kind of culture and community that allows responses to happen. And it's the same as physical first aid, it's exactly the same.

Speaker 1: 40:20

Yeah, there's ways to do that technologically. So it's to say, to the individual at the right time. If you were to sort of, we would get a sense of who their manager they trust is yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, there's a way. It's quite a. There's a lot to that, but I think if it helps one person far out, it's good 100%.

Speaker 2: 40:40

It's great and you know, if we think about suicide, which we might think about as being a really extreme kind of thing to happen and it. But you know, I always say to people when we're going to spend most of our time helping people that are not in crisis, but when we think about mental health, we tend to think about crisis and I don't think that's a bad thing. But you know, if we just draw out the impact of suicide for a second, you know we've got that one person who loses their life, but around that person there's 140 people who are close to them that are affected.

Speaker 2: 41:11

So it's really clear that if we help that person, we help 140 people. So we know that stuff already. And the privacy thing it's interesting because I was working with a transport company a couple of weeks ago and they were saying we were talking about drugs and alcohol and they said, oh yeah, we do random drug testing. That happens. I'm like, okay, cool. And I thought to myself, oh, I wouldn't like that, I wouldn't like that coming into work and kind of go, oh, I could be randomly drug tested anytime and that's a pretty private thing. Right, that's some pretty private data that we're collecting. But why are we collecting it? Because we want to ensure their safety at work. So that's pretty private. So when I think about mental health stuff, I go is it as private as we're thinking? Like there is a privacy component, but like how do we balance that?

Speaker 1: 42:00

out. Yeah, we do need to balance it. It's certainly not an absolute either way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so true.

Speaker 2: 42:06

I could talk about that all day. I think we can do a lot in this space and because we know that work is so important for people and their well-being and you know all that sort of stuff, if we can make workplaces just awesome at this stuff or even just good at this stuff, yeah you know, we'll make such a difference, yeah, yeah yeah, or even not bad.

Speaker 2: 42:24

Yeah, that's right just anything better than average right, so yeah and you know we're working in a, in a world where people will just get up and leave if that organization is not that great right they'll go find where it is, because a lot of orgs are doing it well.

Speaker 1: 42:38

So yeah, it's a tricky one, but I think that's kind of the state of play for those who are listening, uh, and running teams and are concerned, might be concerned with an individual or that sort of thing, or just generally wanting to be a good boss. Basically, what sort of advice would you give them?

Speaker 2: 42:58

In the mental health space, I think, saying to, if you're a boss and you're a leader and you want your team to tell you how they're going, you've got to be telling them how you're going. You know you can't sit there and go all right, how is everybody? But you've got the mask on and you're going. You know you can't sit there and go, all right, how is everybody? But you've got the mask on and you're not showing. So I think you know telling people hey, I'm stressed out this week. You know the stuff hasn't been delivered. They've been waiting on and it's just, oh, it's really driving me up the wall. You know, I'm stressed. Just telling them what they're seeing is a really good place to start, because that sort of starts to tell them that, oh, mental health is also stress and it's also like just being uncomfortable and that can be stressful, right. So it's so true Telling them that stuff.

Speaker 1: 43:35

It's giving them license, isn't it? And it's like you know, and that's not necessarily complaining. I would put complaining into one area to say it's not that, it's about being open. And I know from the sailing business. I've screwed up a few times and every time I screw up I say to my team that's mine, that's my screw up.

Speaker 1: 43:57

Nobody's screwed up more in this business than me, and so what that does is it gives it relaxes everyone around the table, and then they're like, when they have screwed up, they can kind of go. That was mine, and it's like cause I love accountability, so it's the same thing, doesn't? It Applies with how you're feeling. It's like I'm feeling super sad today for this reason. Um, I'm okay, but just wanted to let you guys know. Let's go, or something 100.

Speaker 2: 44:19

I think that's a really important place to start is just recognizing that in that workplace, although you might be managers and you know hierarchy and whatever and these people are paid more than these people, whatever, like you are ultimately just a bunch of human beings. And if someone around that table, you know, fell off their chair clutching their chest, we would all go to help them. You know, we would all do that. I don't think anyone would sit there and go. You know, like I'm not going to do that. So it's this and again we're not, Are you okay?

Speaker 2: 44:49

Like what's happened? Tell me the story. Yeah, and they would.

Speaker 2: 44:52

They'd say, oh you know whatever, but they'd feel comfortable to do it. Those people are not staying home because they've got a sore ankle. Yeah, they're not going. They're not staying home because they're thinking oh, if I? People are showing up into our workplaces now with mental health symptoms already and some of them are being respected and treated the same way as the example I just gave and others aren't. And those ones that aren't, that's where we need to kind of focus. It's like, well and again, not on that person with the illness, but on the environment around that person, because people don't opt out of going to work because they don't want to go to work. They opt out of work because they're fearful about what the response is going to be. So we have to focus on that cultural piece. And so those leaders, those managers, but everybody, really needs to have those skills and that ability to notice when people have started to shift and change and just gently inquire and do it early. But they need the skills, they need the skills, yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:53

Cool, Nick. Well, yeah, we're coming to the end of our time. I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to share with the listeners at all.

Speaker 2: 46:01

I've covered so much yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Yeah, it's been a great conversation. I hope it's helped people, whether they're in a kind of a trough themselves, just to sort of say life's tough and it gets better. Yeah, absolutely. Or, from a manager's perspective or a leader's perspective, to say that, like you say, being authentic, being yourself doesn't mean being a complainer. It just means being open with how you're feeling.

Speaker 2: 46:30

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 46:30

It's a good place to be.

Speaker 2: 46:32

I agree. I think if people are sitting there listening to this and they're struggling, what I'd suggest they do is think about, if this was an equivalent physical health issue, how would I be handling it? And if that means that I'd go to a GP, go to a GP. Or if that means I go to the hospital, go to the hospital. Or if that means I go to the hospital, go to the hospital. Or if that means that I might do a bit of Googling and see what that's about. Do that, you know, because it is health state that we're talking about and there's a world of supports out there, and it's not just the ones we've heard about it's not just talking about it medication.

Speaker 2: 47:05

There's so much out there that you can access and, yeah, my recommendation, or my ask, I wish, would be that, if someone's listening to this and they're struggling or they're worried about somebody else, is to actually engage with them. But go find some support you know whether it's an anonymous helpline and just tell someone what's going on or make an appointment with the GP that you go to all the time. Take that step. There's a lot of support out there and, yeah, it's about finding the, the support that's right for them, but to opt into it, yeah, there's a lot of support out there yeah, yeah, and no matter how much shame they might have over whatever, it's okay, you know, 100, yeah yeah, and, and all of the professionals that you might come in contact with are trained in understanding how you might be feeling right now and they're going to respect that.

Speaker 2: 47:53

And ultimately, if you hit a wall on the first try, shop around, go find another GP, find another provider, call a different helpline. There is a service out there that will support you. There's a really fantastic website actually. I can tell you about it's medicarementalhealthgovau. It's a gigantic kind of like a directory of services that are available across australia. You go on there, type in whatever it is. They've got a great quiz on there which will kind of help you work out what might be going on. Just a super useful resource that you can sort of start with to find a connection or even just to find out what's going on. But yeah, medicarementalhealthcom.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Awesome, nick. Well, thank you, and yeah, we'll keep in touch as. I develop this survey tool. We'll keep in touch, yeah sounds really cool.

Speaker 2: 48:38

Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's been a real pleasure. It's gone really fast. It's been a great chat. I really appreciate it. Cool, nick, all right, thank.