Beyond Safety: McDonald's, Gamification and Global Growth | Scratchie Safety Podcast | Episode 11

In this episode, Scratchie co-founders James Kell and Garry Mansfield discuss their exciting expansion into the quick-service restaurant industry through a partnership with McDonald's. They explore how Scratchie's instant rewards platform is being adapted beyond traditional safety applications to recognize and encourage positive workplace behaviors in new sectors. The conversation covers their firsthand experience in McDonald's operations, insights from recent meetings in Chicago with global technology partners, and a preview of Release 3 featuring the innovative new Convo Card system. Learn how Scratchie is evolving from a construction safety platform to transform workplace culture across multiple industries through positive reinforcement and gamification.

In This Episode (rough timing):
00:00:00 - Welcome and Introduction
00:03:00 - McDonald's Partnership & Peter Ritchie's Legacy
00:08:00 - Chicago SaaS Conference & Logistics Industry Insights
00:13:00 - Scratchie Release 3 Preview
00:15:00 - The Convo Card Innovation
00:19:05 - Gamification in Safety Apps
00:22:00 - Latest Industry News & Rewards Trends
00:26:00 - University of Newcastle Research Update

Key Topics:

• Expansion into quick-service restaurants
• International growth opportunities
• Next-generation safety engagement features
• Academic validation of rewards-based safety
• Integration with major safety platforms

Ready to take the next step? Visit https://www.scratchie.com/book-a-demo to see how Scratchie can help you recognise and reward safe behaviour on your projects. The future of construction safety starts here.

Transcript

James Kell: [00:00:00] Hi, my name is James Kell 

Garry Mansfield: and I'm Gary Mansfield. 

James Kell: We're both co founders of Scratchie and it's been a few months, so we thought it'd be a good idea to, you know, just, uh, share what's been going on. Yeah. Righto. So from the top, we've got a few things we're going to talk about McDonald's, a recent client of ours, the next release of Scratchie.

James Kell: Uh, what happened in Chicago recently, just some latest gamification and safety rewards and just general rewards in the news. And then, anything else that comes to mind, how's that? Perfect. Alright, beautiful. Now, Scratchie and McDonald's. So, um, do you want to sort of give a bit of a backstory to that and how it started?

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. Yeah, look, it, it's been an exciting year and then, to have a tap on the shoulder, to have a chat with a couple of great guys from McDonald's, um, was fantastic. It, it really made us, understand [00:01:00] fast that, um, you know, having another industry approach us and say, there's lots of other things we can reward for.

Garry Mansfield: And we train our people really, really well.

James Kell: Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: And, um, you know, they, they could see that Scratchie could fit in, into their business.

James Kell: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? With McDonald's, they, they have that whole Peter Ritchie legacy. Yeah. So I might just talk about that a little bit. Sure. We've both read his book.

James Kell: So the backstory goes that, that McDonald's, when they started in the 80s, they had this, uh, so there was Australia, they started, it could have even been the 70s, I don't know. Yeah, 70s, I think. Okay. And Australia was, uh, overpaid compared to Asia. It was lower productivity. It was just like the bottom of the tables and McDonald's measure everything.

James Kell: So, Australia was at the bottom of the tables, it wasn't making money. Peter Ritchie was the first CEO of Australia, and, how am I going, I think I said that. [00:02:00] Yeah, that's correct. And then, he turned around, so they started to make money, and McDonald's globally, Um, said, you know, it's, uh, money's hard in this game cause small margins cause we're fast food and there's low margins and that's just how it is.

James Kell: So be very careful with that. And Peter went and spent, I think it was a third or close to a third of the profit on the people on train training. And America said, you got rocks in your head and he said, I'm going to do it anyway. And all of a sudden the performance of, uh, McDonald's Australia smashed it out the park.

James Kell: It was better than anyone else in the world. I think. Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: And it continues to do so.

James Kell: Right. And so when one of our clients heard about, one of our clients was using Scratchie and loved it and then said, Hey guys, you should talk to McDonald's. I've been there before this job. I was there 37 years. I know how they think they are going to love this.

James Kell: And that was our in. That was our in. It

Garry Mansfield: was. [00:03:00] Yeah.

James Kell: Yeah. So now for those who weren't unaware, um, well, you're all aware that McDonald's is a franchise company, but they also have their own stores. And so what we're talking to is a very, um, uh, very influential franchisee in Sydney CBD with a, with Yeah. 10 stores or so.

James Kell: Yeah. So it's really, it's really interesting that they, uh, we sort of thought, okay, this is safety rewards. That's what we do. And they said, you know, safety is important of course, but in restaurants there's a lot of other behaviors that, well, activities, actions that we want to encourage, right? Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: And they can be simple ones from, you know, uh, young workers turning up groomed, uh, young workers turning up and, you know, um, thinking, okay, I'll go out in the car park and just tidy up.

Garry Mansfield: All the mess in the car park and just those jobs that are part of their role, but don't often get called out.

James Kell: Yeah. Yeah. And, and of course being McDonald's and, and for the [00:04:00] listeners, Gary and I went and said, can we do a shift or at least spend a few hours in a McDonald's store? So we had to have a field.

James Kell: And I learned, I, I made my first Big Mac and funnily enough, it tastes like every other Big Mac. Um, it was good . Yeah, it was good. It was Good Mac. Yeah. Relaxed, . Um, and, but we saw just how everything got measured and there's like, I remember seeing on the, uh, in the drive through. You can see how they're doing on their own stats, but then you can see the top five stores in Australia and you can see the nearest stores, everything on one screen, all live, all live.

James Kell: Yeah. And so it's like, this is how we're doing right now on this shift, amazing, it's extraordinary. Yeah,

Garry Mansfield: the measurement there, I mean, we both read that book and expected a lot of measurement, but I think it blew us away. Oh yeah. We came out of there saying, this is [00:05:00] fantastic because it's a great opportunity for Scratchie Duke.

Garry Mansfield: Integrate into that measurement and, and really, uh, really move the needle on some of them, some of the aspects they really want to improve.

James Kell: Yep. And also for us to see when we're fully rolled out, cause it's a phased rollout, when we're fully rolled out, then we will be able to say, it'll be longitudinal.

James Kell: So over time on this, in the same store before and after Scratchie, but it will be also comparing to other similar stores. So we'll be able to. Have a really good idea of the actual transformation in the fast food sector, the industry of, uh, rewarding workers on the spot. So that's, that's amazing.

Garry Mansfield: I think that's amazing.

Garry Mansfield: But I also, as, as much, I'm excited by the fact that particularly young workers in those stores will be, you know, just absolutely knocking it out [00:06:00] of the park when they get that extra recognition and reward. You know, when they jump in the car after their shift and say, mom, I just want 20 bucks for doing X.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. That, that's going to mean a heck of a lot to young workers. And as we know, if you recognize them. Early on, um, we're just going to see the benefits right throughout.

James Kell: I was talking to my nephew who's a teenager and I said to him, well, yeah, he does Scratchie, of course, from the get go. And when I said we're at mcdonald's he was like I would do anything for a 20 cash reward.

James Kell: So, I think we're speaking their language, right?

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So, that's been really exciting and it's early in the journey and there's so much to go. Oh,

James Kell: yeah. No, absolutely. Um, and, and, and I guess that sort of talks to our, um, next thing is, um, just back from Chicago because, you know, um, I was talking to one of the other, it was a big, [00:07:00] um, you So, so for those who are not aware, SAS is, uh, software as a service, uh, and, and so Scratch is considered a SAS company.

James Kell: And so we're at this big SAS, um, thing in, uh, Chicago, or at least I was there talking to, you know, for example, someone who does, um, he he's made his entire success and it's a great success just on servicing Chick fil A, uh, helping them to sell more chicken. So, uh, you know, we don't have Chick fil A in Australia, but.

James Kell: At least in the Southern states in America, Chick fil A is massive. I think it's widely known as, you know, in many sort of measures, the kind of leading, right. Um, so they've doubled down on chicken and, uh, and so that, that was one sort of person, one company I was talking to just, he does software that services Chick fil A.

James Kell: Uh, but it was just so interesting in Chicago and there's so many, you know, when I mentioned [00:08:00] Uh, on the spot categorized rewards for actions that are sort of beneficial or positive or what you want to see. You know, all these companies are like, um, my God, that sounds amazing. Like we, we, we want that. We don't want these rewards that are really hard to redeem or there's a lot of overhead, you know, we've just taken all that crap out of it and that's what appeals to them.

Garry Mansfield: And that's what appealed to McDonald's as well, right? Because McDonald's was saying, we do have a corporate. Rewards program, but it's just too cumbersome. Yes. Uh, meaning that, you know, I have to get behind my desk, log in, find the password, find the employee. Yeah.

James Kell: Yeah. Too

Garry Mansfield: late. Yeah. It's gone.

James Kell: Yeah, that's right.

James Kell: That's exactly right. And there was actually another company, and these guys are in, um, so they're not in logistics so much as they service the logistics industry. Right. And they, uh, you know, you and I know from our, um, another client, um, toll. And they have [00:09:00] this, um, incredibly sort of advanced, uh, system of telemetrics where they have, uh, um, uh, live AI sort of based vision recording of the driver, and it's watching them all the time to make sure they're doing the right thing.

James Kell: And in many ways, that's good thing, right? Because, um, if the, if the driver does anything wrong, then they pick up on it immediately. I think it, um, issues, uh, Um, audible warning to the driver or something and then it pings back to base and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And yet the big missing piece of this and Gary, you and I have discussed this ad nauseum Is that if you do everything perfectly, you

Garry Mansfield: walk straight out the gate at the end of the day.

Garry Mansfield: Nobody recognizes. See you later, Gary.

James Kell: Yeah. And you know, they tried to, um, remedy this. One of the truck drivers [00:10:00] I was talking to and, and bearing in mind, Toll is the top of, uh, logistics in Australia. Like they are the most, they are the leading company for this sort of stuff. And they've got the highest safety metrics and everything else.

James Kell: And he was saying, if somebody has a near miss that they report and everything, they get, they get rewarded. So that, that's understandable. We said, I'm so good, I don't have near misses. He said, I can create a near miss. And you know, it's one guy that I'm talking to, but I kind of saw his point is that we get to the, uh, you get to the end of the shift and now toll gets to the end of the truck drivers get to the end of their shift.

James Kell: And if they have, um, you know, a clean record for that, then they get a Scratchie, Scratchie. Now anyway, back to Chicago and I'm talking to a company that services that telemetrics [00:11:00] Um, hardware that goes into all these trucks and he said, Oh my God, we are looking for some like you basically. And so we're going to be talking with them and, and the company that they service, this hardware company, this telemetrics company, it's the biggest in the world.

James Kell: So that's just one partner. It's really exciting to think that of course it's a very exciting to grow our startup and that's wonderful. But at the same time, when your startup. Uh, is responsible for improving, uh, not only safety, but, uh, kind of joy at work, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. And mental wellness and all that sort of thing.

James Kell: It feels good on a number of levels. Totally.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah.

James Kell: Yeah. So that, that was Chicago. There's, there's a bunch more. Um, I mean, we'll be in the U S you know, soon enough, won't we? Yeah. Uh, which is probably a good segue to talking about our next release.

Garry Mansfield: Uh, [00:12:00]

James Kell: do you want to sort of give a, yeah, okay. I mean, I can talk about the technology piece, um, on the funding side of things.

James Kell: I mean, the funding really, so Scratchie received, uh, funding not so long ago. Before that point it was Gary and I, it was, it was bootstrapped and it gets hard, doesn't it?

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. Yeah. When, when you're, you know, it gets really hard when we've, when we've, Got to make the next big moves. E. g. U. S.

James Kell: Exactly. Yeah.

James Kell: We're looking, we're going, okay, this has got, this has proven itself. Now we need to really scale and put some proper resources into it. And for the two of us to do that, that, that was, uh, we needed more firepower. Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: So thank you for the funding. It's, uh,

James Kell: Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. We're very appreciative of that.

James Kell: And of course that's just created. It's, it's given us this runway to create the next release and it's pretty much everything that we've [00:13:00] learned in the past, not just three years of Scratchie, but sort of 15 years of, since we started talking about this and we can now fold that into release three, which is our next release.

James Kell: Um, and I wanted to talk about one thing. In release three, and that is what we're calling ConvoCard. Yeah, so perhaps Gaz, you can kind of talk more about that and, and, and what's existing in the industry and why that's a problem.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah, so. Um, as a lot of industries will have the pre start, you know, the, um, take five, the slam, the stop or whatever it's called, usually, um, some pretty clever acronyms.

Garry Mansfield: Um, and what, what are they? Oh, look, it's just a way of, when you commence work, the theory is that you stop and have a think and a, and a, and a, essentially a conversation around the tasks you're about to undertake. Um, [00:14:00] typically it's a little handbook in your top pocket and you rip something out and it goes into a box.

Garry Mansfield: That's typically how it works and has for a long, long time.

James Kell: Right. So the, the idea behind it's really valid. It's really good. It is. Yeah. Where it's flawed

Garry Mansfield: is on two fronts. One where, where does that piece of paper go? And it typically goes into a cardboard box. And if there's some issues on that piece of paper.

Garry Mansfield: Uh, we're getting a very good record of issues. So

James Kell: it's, they're creating a rod for their own back.

Garry Mansfield: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Um, particularly the more you do and you know, there's, there's, if you, if you stuck your hand in and pulled out a fistful randomly and you looked how they filled out, you would be very, very concerned.

Garry Mansfield: One of the better word. Mm. The, uh, the other issue I have with them is workers generally don't see too much benefit for themselves. They see it as ass covering for the [00:15:00] organization. Yes. Therefore, they take no time or care in completing them. Yeah. They're measured on, did you complete your, your start card?

Garry Mansfield: And they say yes. Yep. Right. Um, talking with one of our clients, um, was the op, the ability to utilize Scratchie as a rewards platform for completing. A start card, and we've now called ConvoCard because it's actually the conversation that's the valuable piece. And we will do this simply, very, very simply.

Garry Mansfield: We have, we haven't got. You know, risk matrices and a convoluted lotto number system to work out whether you can start work It'll be very simple, but it'll obviously use a lot of technology that if there are any concerns The right people will be alerted instantly And of course the data that we can capture Um, you know, the ability to take a photo for workers and of course the whole gamification piece for the worker to say, wow, [00:16:00] when I'm, I'm, you know, I'm on a streak and I'm completing X of these, I'm actually getting recognized and rewarded for this, which is the first time.

James Kell: And I guess it's important to note that we're doing this, like we are not a safety platform are we? Not at all. No. We are not. So. Um, how does this relate to our partners at the, the kind of the, the leading safety platforms, the hammer techs, the one breadcrumbs, the pro cores, the, the, um, Oracle A connects and yeah.

James Kell: Well, it

Garry Mansfield: all meant beautifully for them, right? Because we can provide incentive for workers to do this task that, um, a lot of organizations, particularly mining, rail, civil, still do these, um, every day. And there could be thousands of workers doing those. in some of these organizations per day. And then when we ask them, what are you getting out of it?

Garry Mansfield: What, what data are you getting out of this that you're actually [00:17:00] learning something from? And it's like, well, we don't know. They're just in this big cardboard box.

James Kell: Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: And, um, that's where there's a great opportunity for us to, to dive in there. And then at the same time, reward workers for doing the right thing when they complete.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. A very, very simple convo card.

James Kell: Yeah, right. And so what we do just to sort of the nerdy technology piece is that we have API connections with our partners. Yeah. The likes of, uh, let, let's use, uh, Hammertech as an example. And so of course Hammertech welcomes any kind of hazard, um, identification, which is I think what this called in the parlance, is it?

Garry Mansfield: Yeah.

James Kell: So this would be a form of hazard identification. That feeds straight into the Hammertech system, is ingested, so to, to be nerdy, and in the Hammertech system, and so it, it enriches, um, the, the users, if you're using Hammertech, um, for example, or, or any one of these [00:18:00] safety platforms, then your level of, um, user, um, behavior and interaction improves, increases.

James Kell: Yep. So that's, um, that's one thing in this next release that we're really excited about. And it was user, it was, the idea came from a user.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah, it came from a tier one construction firm, who had some concern around the way that we still operate. You know, that it has done for a long, long time on pieces of paper.

James Kell: Literally, literally, uh, like little notepads. That have, it's kind of like the 1980s, you know, little notepads that are pre printed and they have little tick boxes. Yeah. Wow. It was, uh, and I, now don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking low tech, uh, that, you know, it has its place. Yeah. If low tech operates well, then fair play.

James Kell: Yeah. You know, when we're not after tech for its own sake, but where a worker fills in that card [00:19:00] and it says there's a real hazard that's been ID'd. And it goes into a post box that might get checked once a month, then there's something wrong. Yeah, so, so that's really exciting, um, to, to be able to do those, take five, slam, whatever you call it, uh, is great.

James Kell: Another thing, just one more thing about the next release that excites me at least, uh, is the, well, there's two things I want to talk about. Gamification. Now gamification, for those who don't know. Is, I mean, it's like, you know, if you've got a fitness app or you've got one of those watches or anything that encourages you to be more fit or to get more sleep or to drink less alcohol or anything like that, then typically, whether it's an Apple watch, there's so much gamification in our personal lives now.

James Kell: Yeah. Um, and so, and there's, and there's a bunch of science, not [00:20:00] just the technology of building such an app, but the psychology of gamification. And so you guys, you might want to talk about this gamification guru that we've been consulting as part of the next release. Yeah. Look,

Garry Mansfield: I think I'm not the tech guy in the business, but when I heard gamification, I was thinking Star Wars, you know, like, um, and then I had to learn really quickly that Um, I'm already part of gamification, right?

Garry Mansfield: I'm already there, you know, um, like most of us. In fact, whether we know it or not, my wife tells me that she's, she's 400 and something days into Duolingo, right? 400. I was saying she's beyond me. I'm, I'm 390.

James Kell: Right. Like that. Yeah.

Garry Mansfield: And, um, You know, she loses the shit if she misses a day on that. Yeah. Um, it's, it's, you know, so there's that whole thing, but she's learning a language and she's loving it.

Garry Mansfield: Right. Yeah. And it's the gamification piece that keeps her hooked. There's no doubt about,

James Kell: and they really are the leaders, aren't they? Yeah. Duolingo, for those who [00:21:00] don't know, they're the, they teach more language in the US than the entire US education system does. , and, you know, you do five or 10 minutes every day.

James Kell: And they reward you for, uh, an unbroken streak and there's no money. This is just purely some, it's just, um, you know, basically optimizing our need for where our love of dopamine and all these other hormones. That's exactly right.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah.

James Kell: Yeah. And, and so, you know, there's a real science behind that. And this guy that we've been talking to, Wow, he's, he's crazy.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just blown away the depth that he, that he can see in, um, in, you know, in our process that we're working. If you look at ConvoCard as an example, um, you know, he's pulled it to pieces to really, really understand where, Gamification isn't just a, uh, a little shiny toy, it's [00:22:00] something that'll make an impact to the individual and, uh, it's incredible that someone that's an expert in that is, is, is, you know, really clever.

James Kell: It's true. Like on the surface, people say, oh, gamification, yeah, put one of those, um, uh, roulette wheels in the game and they just talk about this superficial kind of gimmicky stuff.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah.

James Kell: Whereas he goes into, you know, some of the leading psychological, um, psychoanalytical theory, kind of leading thinker, Dickey and Ryan and the rest of them, and you know, our need for autonomy and, and competence and relatedness and all that sort of stuff and how that relates.

James Kell: So it's the very essence of who we are and how we think and how we feel. And then how can you optimize on that? You know, that's, uh, that for me is just mind blowing.

Garry Mansfield: And it's, apart from the gamification side, the impact it has on the user, um, in terms of a stress free, you know. user experience. [00:23:00] It's fantastic.

Garry Mansfield: You know, it's not, nothing's overload. It's designed that the user doesn't just go, Oh no, too hard.

James Kell: Fleek, I'm out. And at the same time, it's, it can't be a distraction. So we can't have it so that their, their work comes second to the game. So it's been a real, it's a real art. It's a real balance, isn't it? Um, making this thing, which is super lightweight.

James Kell: You know, I think it, um, ultimately it's going to take a supervisor like one press to get a reward away. Yeah. And then the worker, it'll take them 15 to 30 seconds. To be receiving it, feeling great about their work, and then getting on with the job. So, uh, yeah, that's, that, that process, yeah, okay. We've spoken a lot about, um, But that's, that's sort of first quarter next year, right?

James Kell: That's correct, yeah. And then of course, multi currency, multi language. Yeah, that's a bit. Measuring success. So, one, one last thing I think, um, it's easy, and I learned [00:24:00] this in Chicago just, uh, the other week. That is, it's easy to measure the success of the use of the app, but what we need to do, and what Release 3 is going to do more of, is to measure the transformation that Scratchie makes in our clients.

James Kell: Yeah. Because that's ultimately why our clients are choosing us. Uh, that's, uh, that's all in the pipeline, so that's super interesting. Um, okay, so, next piece, latest, latest in the news. Um, do you want me to go through a couple of things I've found? Sure. Uh, online. We've got, um, one is this, uh, this BBC piece.

James Kell: I'm going to erase that. One is, um, Amazon. So, Amazon has recently, um, Uh, well, they've got this system where there's a 10, [00:25:00] 000 reward, uh, to encourage entrepreneurship. So they give you three months salary plus 10, 000 for employees who want to leave their own jobs and start their own businesses. So it's a, it's, yeah, so it's kind of like, I remember Google back in the day had that whole, 15 percent or 20 percent or something.

James Kell: We, you had a day a week or close to a day a week where you could do your own project, your own side project. Oh, that's right.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah.

James Kell: Yeah. And I think it was, you know, Gmail and some of these other things came from that. Um, now, so Amazon is similar. They've got this, uh, they want to encourage people. So they, you know, I think they realized that some, you know, honey is more effective than vinegar.

James Kell: Yeah. Like they're, um, to encourage people to do certain things, you know, is. Y y yeah, you can't really Um, say, start a business or, or I'll, uh, fire you for, you know, [00:26:00] The innovative way, right? Exactly. And, uh, yeah, so they know what, what works. Uh, so anyway, that's Amazon. That's interesting. Um, and there's another one we found from a London based company called Frank.

James Kell: And what they do is, uh, they've got this employee engagement activity on mental health, and they reward you for switching your phones off at work. So it. And it tracks phone usage and stuff like that. So it's, you know, obviously for, um, in fact, you know, for companies like McDonald's and that sort of thing, where, um, the workers are, uh, are encouraged not to have their phones.

James Kell: I don't think they're allowed to have their phones on a shift, then this could be, um, something that actually could, we should talk to these guys. because it Um, if they sort of track that, then, uh, we can apply, uh, the Scratchie piece to it. You can apply Scratchie to pretty much anything, can't [00:27:00] you? Any kind of action.

James Kell: Yeah. We're learning that now. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, uh, that's good. And, uh, yeah. I mean, there, there's other things. There's, um, yeah, in fact, here's one that I thought was worth mentioning. Uh, there's a beverage company in the U. S., massive beverage company, I think the third largest in the U. S. And they've got cards for weekly, for the safety observations and that sort of thing and, and kind of other pro safety actions.

James Kell: And within a year of implementation, the company saw a 56 percent reduction in accidents. So, um, this stuff works, you know. Yeah. We're seeing more and more evidence of that. So, uh, yeah, no, that's just sort of Some of this positive stuff in the news that I thought was worth mentioning.

Garry Mansfield: The last thing we could mention in news is University of Newcastle.

James Kell: Oh, yeah. Yeah Well, you were just at the opening [00:28:00] last week of the Centre for Construction Safety. Is that the first in Australia? It's the second, I believe. The first in New South Wales. Okay, so we've got Shine Down in Victoria. Yep. Uh, Helen Lingard and that, and that crew, she's an amazing woman. Um, and then so, uh, Newcastle is doing something kind of similar, I think it's, it's research in safety.

James Kell: Right. Yep. So, as far as I'm aware, we're the first safety incentive technology that's being studied by them?

Garry Mansfield: Yes.

James Kell: Which is really exciting, because it'll be, we'll be able to, you know, when we say that um, we have this improvement and everything else, you know, justifiably people go, yeah, but that's you.

James Kell: You're the, you're sort of measuring that and saying, we kind of agree with you or we kind of believe you. But when it's a university, and you know, we have to go through ethics and all that sort of thing. Like it's a real process, [00:29:00] isn't it? To go through this. It is. And so we're just in the, in the midst of that now.

James Kell: So that's super exciting.

Garry Mansfield: Yeah. We should have some, you know, something solid sort of early next year as well. Yep.

James Kell: So no, very, uh, yeah, there's so much going on. Yeah. Cool. So,

Garry Mansfield: um, anything else before we wrap up? I think that's it. Uh, that's a good little update. It's been a big year, not over yet. Yeah. And, uh, definitely looking for a little break over Christmas

James Kell: at least.

James Kell: Yeah. No, it's been a such a good year. Uh, so yeah, we might have one more recap before the end of the year, but, um, yeah, no. Well, thanks for listening. If you've gotten this far, good on you and, um, we'll, um, till next time. All right. Cheers. Thanks. Bye.