From Nurse to Safety Maverick: Josephine Taylor's Journey to Transform Construction | Scratchie Safety Podcast | Episode 8

Get ready for a no-holds-barred discussion as we sit down with Josephine Taylor, a trailblazing safety leader at construction giant John Holland, in Episode 8 of the Scratchie Safety Podcast. With a background in nursing and a rebellious streak that led her to challenge the construction industry's safety status quo, Josephine shares her unconventional journey and bold vision for change.

In this episode, we dive deep into the construction world's safety challenges, from ineffective toolbox talks and generic training modules to a punish-first mentality that's hurting morale and hindering progress. But Josephine doesn't just dwell on the problems; she comes armed with game-changing solutions.

Imagine a world where safety meetings are lively, engaging conversations that workers actually look forward to, and where training is delivered in irresistible, bite-sized chunks. Josephine believes that by harnessing the power of positive reinforcement and innovative tools like Scratchie, we can transform safety from a top-down mandate to a bottom-up movement.

But her vision doesn't stop there. Josephine advocates for a fundamental shift in how we structure work in construction, from embracing 5-day workweeks to fostering inclusive, flexible environments that attract diverse talent and fresh perspectives. She's calling on industry leaders to be bold in overhauling their practices and aligning around a shared vision for a safer, more human-centric future.

Whether you're a safety professional, a construction executive, or just someone who cares about making work better for everyone, this episode will leave you inspired and energised to join the safety revolution. Tune in to discover how you can start building a stronger, more engaged workforce today.

Ready to take the next step? Visit https://www.scratchie.com/book-a-demo to see how Scratchie can help you recognise and reward safe behaviour on your projects. The future of construction safety starts here.

Transcript

Josephine Taylor | Podcast Transcript

The three people speaking in this podcast are James Kell, Josephine Taylor and Garry Mansfield.

Hello, this is James Kell, co-founder of Scratchie. We have Gary Mansfield here, my co-founder today, and we're talking with Josephine Taylor. Josephine is a senior leader in John Holland, one of Australia's largest construction companies, a Tier one construction company. They build billion dollar plus infrastructure and other massive projects in Australia. Josephine is a real warrior and an innovator and in the early days of Scratchie showed us a lot of support because she really believed in the concept of encouraging workers to work safely. She wanted to see more of that and she wasn't afraid to let that be known in her workplace and dealt with a lot of headwinds for that. So we really love Josephine, and this is an hour of a really great discussion. Please enjoy. Here we go. Josephine Taylor.

Well, Josephine, welcome. Thank you for coming. It's so good to have you here. Now, for the listeners, Josephine has been known to Gary and I for quite some time and is a legend in the industry and a massive supporter of Scratchie at a really important time when we were sort of second guessing ourselves a lot. But I'd love to kick off Josephine with just a really curly question. What are the conventional thoughts in safety that people are talking about that you just have a bit of a problem with? Are there any of these kind of conventional thinking that you think really needs to be addressed? And I'm sure there's a lot of them. But what's the what's one that comes to mind?  One that comes to mind for me would be around consultation. Mm hmm. Like, it's probably one of the most important things that we have to do. And it is done badly, continuously. And I don't. I don't know if we really understand how to do good consultation. Right? Right. We go straight in toolbox talk, consultation. Actually, this is something committee consultation you feel strongly about too, right? Yeah, I've always felt that. As you've just described. But I feel, you know, there's a code of practice for consultation. Right. And the best that the safety industry seem to do is stand up and just tell everybody what they want for the day or what they should be doing. And I have a problem, and I think we all have a problem with the telling piece. And I know the worker hates it because the worker's looking at his or her phone thinking "all you do is come down and just tell me what to do". And it's it's such a shame because it's it's time is valuable. There's a lot of time invested in it. Yep. Quite often. Every day. It's very repetitive. It is. What we talk about is very repetitive. And I think something we miss as safety professionals is we're in this business because we're really passionate and we are actually genuinely interested in this. But for a lot of people we work with. This is just one portion of their job, a smaller portion, and they don't find it interesting. Like I'm married to someone who does not find safety super interesting. He finds me super interesting, but I don't find safety super interesting. So it's one of those things that we're standing up there, passionately preaching, as you say, to people that are already bored at the start of the topic. Yes. And then we talk about consulting with them, but they're not engaged. So I think it is very important to consult. And I'm definitely not saying that's not a really key part of good safety. I'm saying how we do it currently and the methods we choose and the avenues we take don't land. They're not engaging to individuals enough to to get that culture change and that message to land and get people to really come on board with their own investment. And it's probably I mean, I think safety generally. And if even if it's not safety team if it's I mean James and I saw shout out here to Rhett from Erilyan hold a toolbox meeting with I don't know maybe 200 workers and it was the best I've ever seen. I've got a I've got a safety manager who is sublime at delivering a passionate message and he's very engaging to listen to. I totally agree. There are definite professionals out there that can hold the room in the crowd and really speak where you want to listen to them. Actually, Rhett wasn't the safety manager, right? No, he was the site manager. Yeah. And he held that site in the palm of his hand and it's through experience. I know few site managers that can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Through fear and love sometimes. And it's the balance, right? It's the balance. And he did such an amazing job. And James and I were just looking at each other. Just going like, this is one of the best I've seen. Yeah. And I think to be fair, that we put the construction industry anyway, put people in the position to deliver a toolbox talk, quite often the cadet. Yeah. That's knees are knocking together as they're standing there. They've had no, no coaching whatsoever on how to effectively communicate, etc. So there's a lot of great opportunity there and I just think it's done. I just think it's, it's few and far between. You hear those great stories and a lot of the time and you know, especially outside of maybe big, big business, you end up that consultation piece is lost and it could be more effective. But we need new tools, new ways, new technologies. We're not using technology enough in construction. Well, you talk you spoke about engagement and so now you're talking about technology. And I think those two, those two, especially engagement, isn't really isn't really spoken about. So it's like let's build all these systems. So I'd love to to sort of explore that more with you. What do you mean by lack of engagement and what you know, what does it need? What helps it? So I like to think about what we currently do to be engaged ourselves, like, has anyone here ever fallen down the Instagram reel route where you just thirty second reels and you're in them, next thing you know, an hour's gone. Like, how engaged were you? You didn't even notice the hour was gone. We've all been guilty of this. What's so engaging about that? It's this variety. It's fast paced, it's 30 seconds. It's funny. It keeps your brain ticking and moving. And what we design in safety, you know, hour and a half learning modules on confined spaces, I really think there should be movement in microlearning credentials where we're tailoring that. We should be mirroring what they do in social media and trying to create, you know, it's not going to be as engaging maybe, but try to recreate what gets people involved. Keep it short, keep it sweet, have a message. Have a. You know, have some humor in it, have some have something in it that people want to see and remember. I've seen quite a few on LinkedIn recently, you know, safety examples of safety videos that have come from overseas and people just keep sharing them around because some of them are just they are, you know, a bit hilarious. But the intent of them is you remember them. Yes. Right. So they stick out to us because it's, you know, a cartoon of someone getting crushed by something, but it's all a bit humorous. Why would you be there? But it's actually it sticks with you totally. You know, it's interesting, we were just at Toll last week who's a client of ours, and they were saying that the one of the things that stuck out was our system messages say, "Well done, champion". Yes, "Well done, you're a legend", or something like that. And they like that. Everybody loves a bit of banter, you know, as long as banter doesn't become toxic. Yeah, it's really, really important, I think particularly in construction, because it reaches people. I know that I've run a campaign previously in another organization where it was about it was a campaign where the signage up was meant to infuriate you like no no sausage rolls on this project. And What?! What do you mean no sausage rolls like the're irate. And then when they got closer, it was like, you know, we're not saying (in small letters), like we're not saying no sausage rolls. We're just asking you to look a little closer because there's heaps of hidden hazards on this job. But it was enough that they all read it, even if they didn't read the hidden hazards in detail. They all read that part because there was the hook in; there was the engagement piece. People like a little outrage, people like a bit of banter. Yeah. And we can be super dry. It's, we can be super dry in safety. Yeah, I think safety. You know, I think it's so fixated on covering its ass. Yes. That, you know, we go there with a toolbox talk and it's like, make sure you say this and this because then we can prove we told them and all that rubbish. Yeah, it's absolutely rubbish. And I've seen the same with these online inductions. Yeah. They go for 2 hours that a worker, you know, very blue collar worker that's sitting there watching some absolute rubbish for 2 hours and we think they're taking something away from it. It is ludicrous. It is absolutely ludicrous. And the money and time and investment and the you know, there's a platform for everything and every organization has got their own little platform in it. Have you done our two hour, you know, "save it first" program? Yeah, yeah, I've done that. Okay. Now come and sit in it for another hour. I will tell you more to do. We'll tell you what to do for the next couple of hours. And it's just I think a friend of mine, Richie Neil, has been banging on about it for a long time, saying we need to do the costing and look at the return. Yeah. And we would just throw that concept straight out the window because it just doesn't work, doesn't add value. Yeah, I agree. And I think there's definitely that connection between how do we cover ourselves, how do we prove that we're consulting and that we're educating and where's our evidence versus how did that actually land? Did anyone take anything away from that? Did it provide value? Because let's be honest, there's a lot of time spent. If you're a transient worker going from big job to big job, you can sit in hours and hours and bloody hours of inductions. Yeah. Is there any value in this. So we actually getting anything over the line here, right? Why are we all so different? Why are we all doing things differently? And I'd love to see an organization invest in going with the way we currently do it, the two hour parade induction. And then you turn up and you sit in the room for another hour. And then I challenge any organization to do a survey the next morning with those ten people and say, It's so funny what I remember, because we've done we've done that on our own projects where we will, you know, do the induction and then ask someone a very simple question around GMRs afterwards. GMRs? GMRs are Global Mandatory Requirements. Yeah. Can you remember what they were? Can you remember the ten, there's only ten, but remember what they were and they like GMR? They just yeah. And this is within a day of that induction and let's face it, they don't care. Yeah, they parachute... to use James's word, they parachute into a project as the lowest priced as the lowest price generally. Right. They parachute into the project. The worker is there going "here we go again". Right, different logo, same shit. That's the mentality that they're sitting there saying, "You can preach your DMRs, your GMRs, whatever you're going to brand them and call them", and they'll go somewhere else tomorrow, as you say, Jo. And it's totally different. And there's another ten, you know, golden rules. Yep. It's just ridiculous. Do you reckon, like, they would remember them if there was money in it for them? Segue. I definitely think that people, they need motivation and that's why I've always been such a fan of the platform. Scratchie platform. Yeah. Can I just do what before just one shout out. I just wanted to say how much Gary and I appreciate you from the very first time when we mentioned Scratchie, you said "this is a good idea. I need to see this in operation". And I'm sure in any large organization there's a lot of headwind, especially with any kind of innovation. Yeah. And you were like, you're just such a warrior. And honestly, we we really admire you for that. Absolutely. You call me a warrior, others might just call me stubborn and irritating, but yet worrying on... All of the three things may exist ... it's great. I think for me it's you know, we're so good at having a negative conversation. I mean, my whole career is based on negative conversations. You know, what you did wrong, what you have to do better, what you can't do. Where you're not allowed to go like it's all negative. We've got wonderful leaders, wonderful form, and wonderful site managers that are all you know, they're very clever and all our site workers are so clever. Like you look at what they build together and what they coordinate and it's amazing. A lot of moving parts, a lot of moving parts, and we continually have negative conversations and it's so foreign to walk up to someone and say, "You've done a great job. This is amazing. Like, look what you've done. That's fabulous." They look at you with two heads and it's uncomfortable because our site foreman, our site supervisors, they're there to push that progress. So for them, one minute they're harsh and then to walk up and say, "Hey, you've done a fabulous job. I really like how you set up your EWP". That's super unnatural. So in the current period, in the current paradigm, Scratchie is a tool. So people, you know, you might look at the financial benefits of it for workers, that's irrelevant. Right. This is about arming frontline supervisors with a tool to engage meaningfully and naturally with people on site, with a bit of banter and a bit of fun and a bit of game. Yep. So it's a more natural than just because if you if we challenge them as KPI to walk up and tell three people they did a great job today, they wouldn't do it. No, they would be so uncomfortable. And weird, yeah. And we've been conditioned that way, as you say, Jo, 20 years of just sort of what you've done wrong. Yeah. Who's who's better with the stick seems to get higher up the ladder. Absolutely no carrots. So to arm them with a tool – and for us a KPI – of of going up and recognizing and rewarding, that will eventually change how you feel about your workplace, your supervisors, your management and your value. I love being praised. I feel super uncomfortable. I shy away from it. But inside, I love to be praised when I've done a good job and I don't see why anyone else should be any different. Yeah, note, well said. I agree. I think we all like it don't we. And then to go full circle on consultation. Right. Mhm. A lot of organizations now are using the term positive conversations. Yes. Right. As a, as a really great KPI. Yeah. And positive conversations is actually consultation. It's actually consultation. So whether we realize it or not, the smarter organizations are saying, you know what, we don't really consult, we just tell them what to do and, "...wear your hard hat and shut up", and do whatever we need them to do. The positive conversation piece is really encouraging to see organizations trying to either implement or measure because it means that we're actually having really effective consultation. Whether that be done with or without a scratch a later I work with currently said something very poignant to me which was, you know, we have to get to the hearts and minds, but you can't get to the hearts and minds until you start having positive conversations and until you build a tool or have something that assists people in that process, it's really... you're putting back a lot of pressure on them to try and build culture and change and change without arming them with something that makes that achievable and a little bit just less awkward, a little bit more manageable. You know, it's the power of that conversation. You're right, is consultation. And once you can build that better safety culture, you know, you can... you will be able to do wonderful things. That's right. And maybe we won't have to have 7000 toolbox talks on PPE, or, you know, prestart, you know, startcards and yeah, all that stuff. I mean, I think the intention is really, really sound. Well, it's funny, we've talked before about the start card, right? And I think -it's still on our list by the way. So the start card in itself is a great concept because the concept is – and a lot of people don't agree with the start cards, "they're worthless". I mean, you read all about it – but I believe in a start card because it's actually a conversation. It's a meant to be. Let's stop, let's talk, let's look, let's start. If you don't have something that triggers that, you don't have those conversations. And one of those conversations might, you know, eventually lead to the change or the change in something, a change in method, a change in how we're working for the benefit. So whilst they might just be a bit of paper that goes in a box and people don't read them properly and they're a bit, you know, stale and old, if we were to use technology to reinvigorate the START card and make it more about having a positive conversation at the beginning of a day, yeah, you I think you would see, you know, a great movement on that. It would become far more beneficial than the current format it is in. It feels. Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think it's I think it's outdated. But the concept is sound. The intent, the intent is that that positive leading conversation but that the method now is just a bit antiquated. And I think, you know, to be fair, I think there'd be a lot of workers there that fill out the start card or whatever card it's called. Yeah, it's tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, job done. Okay. Now and that's not achieving what you just described is there's no conversation pieces like have you done your startcard? "Yes, we have..." But it's also... "Leave me alone". It's relying on them to actively push the issue forward as well. It's very passive on this. You fill in the start card and you tell me if there's something wrong. I'm not going to you to gain that information. I'm passively sitting back here and saying, "Hey, bring me your problems". If we were to embrace technology. You can't get round to everyone who does a startcard. But if you were to embrace technology and design it in, you wouldn't need to. You could get that information to come to you. Yes, absolutely. And they're incentivized, if they're incentivized, if they're, you know, digitized and, you know, that's far more valuable than a piece of paper that goes in a box. And then the the hazards that are marked as priority hazards go. Yeah. Directly to the site manager. Yeah. Site manager goes, "Oh my goodness. I didn't... better go and have a look at that". Yeah. "Where are they. What level was that on. I'm going to go down and have a look". Yeah. Yeah. You did mention this. Yeah, it is in our development pipeline, which I'm very, very excited about. I'd love to see that one. I think it would add a real benefit and then, you know, rewarding people and incentivizing them for doing good ones, you know, being able to double whammy. Yeah. Being able to have a weekly draw. "Hey, so here it is. You've done the start card. And just for that, we're going to give you a reward". Yeah, I mean, that that goes a long way. Yeah, it's so exciting to, to... But again, I'm sort of adulating, it's so exciting to come across someone who who sees safety the way that we do. And that is it's come a long way in the last 20 years, but it's got it's only half the picture. It's only the negative half of the picture in this current paradigm. It is. It's not a bad thing. The current paradigm we don't see is a bad thing. It's just it's the way we've developed, right? Yeah. And it's just not the whole picture. It's like, what about positive part? Yeah, we've just got to bring the other half together. And I think it's exciting because it's becoming much more with Safety 2.0, it's becoming much more of, you know, we're rethinking how we do things. We're changing things up. We're reassessing. And, you know, I think we've got to listen to our young people as well, like the things we can learn that I mean, they're leaps and bounds ahead of us in some of us anyway. Do you want to just talk a little bit about Safety 2.0? Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, what is it for the listeners and and don't do that to me. You know, look up the definition. Between the two of you. It's a bit different to Safety 1.0. Yeah, yeah, it's totally different. But yeah. Is, is there anything happening in in John Holland with Safety 2.0? Absolutely, yeah. Do you want to get to that for me. The way I, I, I define it for myself is it, it's the new way of looking at safety and it's changing exactly what we're talking about here and exactly sort of where I would place something like Scratchie. It's changing the narrative of how we've always done things to how we might do things differently. Um, you know, I would equate it to reducing down procedures that are long and hard to read and get lost in translation and then turning them into something that is short and sharp and, and easily navigable and takes away the pain for people. It's about, you know, looking at things we've always done like a toolbox talk and working at how we can do things differently, how we can use technology, how we can re evaluate how we deliver that message and do something that is, you know, more modern. Okay. Is how I would describe it. Yeah. I don't know about you Garry. No comment. No, Oh really you... No look, I don't know enough about it to be brutally honest. I've, I've spent more of my time looking at the social psychology piece. Yeah. And I've always had an attraction to that from the very, very early days of Scratchie. That's where it started actually. Yeah. With social psychology behind it. But yeah, I'm just not I'm not, I'm certainly not up to the current conversations around it. I'm not someone who is an expert on it. But I'm I'm just hopeful I think. I think a lot of the stuff we see on LinkedIn and the like is just the the almost the bashing and banter around what number is better than the other and what works and what doesn't. And I think somewhere in the middle, maybe there is a solution, but what you just described to me sounds fantastic. If we can get there in my lifetime, that'd be terrific. Yeah, because I think, you know, genuinely most senior or most most savvy organizations are reevaluating safety in their businesses. They're saying, you know what, we spend bucket loads on resourcing and systems and platforms and the like. What is missing? Yeah, right. Because we know that safety is not getting much better in terms of results. And there's clearly something that we might be missing. And I just I remain hopeful that everyone in the safety mafia, I call it remains remains agile is probably the the word. It's it's it's the organizations that that feel by... For example, we've always done toolbox talks at 7:00 in the morning and told people what to do. That's if that works for you, great, Yeah. But I don't think it's working. And we're not seeing enough change at a time. Can we segue, just before this, you did mention about being a woman in a male dominated industry with with kind of structures set up for we men, and women have generally have different well are different in. And can you talk a little bit about that? Because I know there's a lot of diversity. I think in the States we're seeing diversity at its extreme and we're seeing the problems with going to one extreme. But perhaps there's also a lack a problem with a lack of diversity. And somewhere in the middle, there's a beautiful balance, like probably most things in the universe. So I'd love to hear. I think it's a it's an interesting week to have that conversation with the, you know, the gender pay gap coming out and and the Mardi Gras on and my way. Here we are in Surry Hills. That's right. And the the you know, the gender pay gap really highlighted to me how much people don't understand about that. You know, pay equity is different to pay gap. You know, often I think this industry probably has very good pay equity. You know, men and women in the same jobs get paid the same amount, you know, give or take for experience and, you know, tenure and things like that. But the the wages are, you know, fairly equal. The gap is that there's not enough women in the industry and there's not enough women at the senior level to help drive that change. But we were talking, you know, and my experience in construction has been excellent. I've loved working in it. And yes, it is male dominated, but I've been very blessed in all the organizations I've worked in to have worked with really good, wonderful men and women. But I do believe that we need to change how we are structured as an industry if we actually want real diversity of all sorts. We've got untapped resources of very smart people out there that don't believe that they could work in this industry based on how we've set it up, and we need to change how we do things. We talked earlier about the culture standard. Like I'm a massive advocate for the CICT culture standard. So sorry. CICT? CICT is the Construction Industry Culture Taskforce and they have a draft standard out at the moment on culture. So it's set up under three pillars being wellbeing, mental health and time for life. Mm hmm. And if we looked at that and how what that what they are trying to get across is we need to change how we drive work within construction. So good. It is not healthy to do long, long hours. If you're doing 55, 60, 65 hours a week, it is detrimental to your health and your family's health. And this is why we have double the suicide rates. And it's not just that, but, you know, we have a lot of problems in construction that we want to address where, you know, we get our Foundation Houses and our Mates In Construction. They're there for a reason, because we've got problems. But we have zero harm, right? You have zero harm, but we've got people working hours that are absolutely detrimental. But it's okay because we get paid well. yeah, that's the answer. You know, you hear people and they truly believe that we get paid really well. So it's okay to do hours that are fundamentally detrimental to you as a person. So CICT have looked at, you know, what are the hours that we should be doing? And if you can keep that to 50 hours and that's still a lot you know, most employment contracts are 38, we're still doing 50. It's a lot of reasonable overtime there and yet 55 being the absolute cap of what they believe should happen. You know, that's actually quite difficult to get on a job. Yeah. You know, we've got jobs where we're trying to get you know, John Holland works really hard with the CICT, and we're genuinely trying to get those hours to to meet. And we have been on a journey with it because it's super difficult and that's on a five day a week program. Yeah, I was just about to mention the five day week and I think Alison Mirams was... Yes, a massive advocate and probably the the one that instigated with a lot of the old school thumbing their nose at Alison at the time. And yeah, I think Roberts at the time, you know, instigated a study to see on the productivity and the like. And then of course, you know, I think now with I guess the cost of doing nothing and government, government now can say, well, if we're genuine about mental health and and the general wellbeing of this industry, yes, this needs to be looked at. Health infrastructure is a huge advocate for the culture standard. They are driving that with their with their projects. Brilliant. It's wonderful. And, you know, there's been kickback originally when we've started these five day a week projects, you know, are people going to get paid enough. How are we going to be how to build it in the same time frame? And everybody has said it is actually it's it's comparable differences in doing a six day and a five day. But the health benefits are absolutely fantastic. I think if you ask the workers we have. Yeah, well, you know when you talk to the workers and say what really goes on on a Saturday. Yeah. And they go, oh, we get in late, we have a bacon and egg roll. And by 10:00 we're wondering who's going first. And it's just it's just low productivity, really. Like it is a low productivity day.

James Kell: Okay. We are back on. So, no, it was just like maybe the last minute or two. That's right. Where were we? So we were talking about the five day working week. Yes. And you know that Alison Miram's being... Yes. She's a big supporter of the culture standard and the CICT. And, you know, she has been absolutely leading the way with Roberts on this. And I know there's a lot of actual debate currently going on in the industry and surveys being done around whether or not a five day or six days is a better option. I think fundamentally, from a safety professional perspective, we have to look at the health outcomes for people. I don't think you can necessarily argue with the connection between time for life and health, having time to shop, to exercise, to relax, to regenerate your self versus working, you know, 12, 13, 14 hours a day and having no time to do that. You know, getting takeaway, being tired, sitting down like all of this compounds and it's an industry and a problem that is self-generated within construction. Can I be the unpopular one in the room and push back just for the sake... You can try. Here comes the builder joke. Here comes the builder. Bring it. So if someone and this might be me being reductionist, but I'll have a crack. Someone says, Oh, a five day a week. Fine. Site Manager You're now going to have to take a 15% pay cut. You're happy with that? And to have site manager go. My life is set up for I don't know what a site manager gets a lot and -15% not so happy. Give me that six day. That's low productivity. Frankly, give me that six day. And the extra 15% is it that simple? It's it's an absolute scare tactic that people think is going to happen. I know of no one who is doing five day weeks that has had anyone take a pay cut. It would- we're too short on good people in this industry. No one's asking anyone to take less money. Yeah, we need talent. We want to engage that. I mean, anyone who is looking at a five day week has recognized that you actually work better when you are rested and you can work longer on those five days, right Yeah. We generally try and keep it to like, you know, between ten and 12 hours on day, which is with your DA conditions or whatever it might be. It's still a lot isn't it. It's still a lot, it's a big day. Right. But ultimately, people work better when they are rested. So if you're if you are sophisticated enough to be considering a five day a week program, you would have an understanding of the health benefits, I would assume, and you would have an understanding about how people work better. I've done long days. I've worked, you know, before children on sites that, you know, the show of prowess was that you were the last person standing. You know, no one wanted to be the first to leave. Everyone was on Sportsbet. Everyone was reading the paper. Right. You know, once I had children, my life changed dramatically because I did not have I could not do the time. I couldn't read the newspaper. I'd get my job done in the allocated time I had. I've always said working mums lack... and working dads like you... they're you're most efficient people because I couldn't read the newspaper for an hour because I had to get I had to get everything done because I had a hard leave time. I had to leave at four. You know, Sydney. In Sydney you've got commute times, right? You have to take into account anywhere in Sydney. If I'm not leaving at four and there's an accident on the bridge, I'm, I'm stuffed. I can't pick up my child. But we don't all have huge networks of people to pick up toddlers from daycare. Right. They don't generally hand them out to strangers, which is a good thing. You know, so if you're late, you're late. I had one daycare that was $25 a minute if you were late. Oh, my, GOD. The reason being that parents would be 5 minutes late a lot. And they had to pay the wages of two people to stay because you don't leave children with one person. So that business has to then account for two wages of two people for you being 5 minutes late. So I'll tell you now that $25 an minute was a motivator to get your ass out of that office at 4:00. 'Cause I'm not paying that, you're already paying a lot for childcare. You're not paying... you don't wanna pay extra. So in Sydney, you know, and many other states that have, you know, horrendous commuter times, you have to factor that into your day. And we were talking earlier, once I had children, I felt that 90% of the jobs available to me in construction were no longer feasible. Can we, can we like just unpack that for you because there's this could be some of it is just the job and genuinely some some jobs need a commitment that a lot of let's let's be old fashioned for a second or whatever a lot of working mothers would say not not I've got more important priorities, not interested. But some of it is the structure, the existing structure that is built around men. And that actually can change. Yes, but. But won't because people generally don't like to change. Yeah. Is that would that be a fairly accurate kind of dichotomy in my in my personal opinion, yes. Okay. Yeah. So what are some of those things that can and should change that people just aren't? Inductions. Times. The time, right? It is beautifully specific. Yeah. It's a time of induction, time of induction. Let's talk about that. Everyone is in that shed or that room waiting at 6:00 in the morning, 630 in the morning, and the induction is generally at seven in my experience. And all the companies I've worked in. 7:00 and my daycare doesn't open till seven. Okay. All right. So I have to find a way of getting of teleporting myself into that room. If that is my job at 7:00 and I have yet to really meet employers in construction that are willing to say, you know what, everyone, we're gonna do it at nine because that's more realistic and convenient for the... for our workforce. It has to be done at seven because we have to get started. We have to start that program. Pressure is real. I think that that is really restrictive. Yet we talk about wanting diversity. We want diversity. We want women. Why won't women join? Why won't that's just one example of the inflexibility that cut out 90% of jobs for me. And so just to push back, not not because I actually hold this view, but is there between 7 a.m. and a 9 a.m. induction, there's 2 hours there that on that particular day that the worker isn't working because you tell the workers to rock up at nine. Absolutely. What happens to that? That's it. That's another thing that the subcontractor would be forced to, I guess, endure or, you know, put into what is already probably a very lean contract. So I'm not saying it's, you know, the best way, but and it's not, you know, it's a hard one to fix. But genuinely, if we want to make change, we're going to have to have some of these uncomfortable conversations. And I go back to the value of this 7:00 induction, like if it was valuable and I but what is it valuable to? It's valuable to program and start. Oh yeah. It's it's all geared around that. We know that if I thought it was the most important thing. In terms of safety for a worker entering a new job site, I'd probably be pretty rigid on it. I'd say I know it has to be 7:00 because that's the way it is. And it's extremely... But, I mean, we all know that everybody walks out of that room. Brain dumps it and it's added bugger all value. Got it. That's my issue. Yeah. You know, and that's what you're saying is. Yeah. Yeah, right. And organizations have then gone to these online platforms that does a two and a half hour induction, which hasn't gotten rid of the 7 a.m. induction. No, we still get them to do that too. So we've got. Really. Yes. Yeah. So you can sit through four online modules for some organizations and then come and do the face to face as well. And look, a lot of that comes down to protecting ourselves as a builder. You know, we have to be able to hand on heart say that you did your training. I can't do that when it's online, unfortunately. You know, it can be done by anybody in your home, anyone in your your circle. Right. You subcontract out inductions! Yeah. Yeah. We've had cases of, you know, administrators, administrators in offices doing every induction. Right. So if I can't hand on heart eyeball you and prove that you were in that room. It's very hard to me to... So let's get rid of... -prove that you were the person that did that online induction. Yeah, but the thing is too Jo, like, if you look at the diversity in the industry and you look at the blue collar workers out there, most... There's a there's great numbers in terms of language, numeracy, literacy. Yeah, absolutely. There's no way they could get through a two and a half hour for a lot of them. A lot of them now with iPhones and other technology, you have the ability to do that translate. So from that perspective, I actually really like it because you can use technology to cater that education piece to someone who does have a challenge that my staff might not be able to fulfill in saying that, you know, I remember when we first started with online inductions, when they first got introduced and we would have people do it and then come in to see me. And I would say, was it a man or a woman who was doing the talking? Right? And they would go, "...ohh, dunno". And I'm like, You didn't do it. You didn't do it, did you? And they're like, "naah, my daughter did it", or Yeah, no, I didn't do it. So that to me really, you know, and and look we're all guilty of not wanting  to do things. It's a complete waste of time! And I'm like, we all guilty of this that we don't want to do things sometimes, and we palm them off to people. Organizations think they're covering their ass by getting someone to do a two and a half hour pre-induction. Right. I am not a lawyer and I'd go straight to Greg Smith if I needed somebody to represent me in this regard. Greg would stand there in a court and say, did you realize that that two-and-a-half-hour induction was done by this guy's daughter because he can't read and he can't write? Yeah. You would have no knowledge of that. You'd have no knowledge of that. And it means your system failed, which is why it's so important that we bring people into a room. Absolutely. And we don't do it just because – we are dry, and we know that – we don't do it just to be boring. We do it because we actually can't... We don't know if you know, where the emergency muster points are. We don't know if you know where the exits are. Yeah, I think it becomes a little bit out of control when we start filling our inductions with things that are not risk critical. Right. So I've sat in a lot of inductions that have wonderful social pieces and wonderful like great to know pieces and are really, really long. But at the end of the day, I really need you and I might be simplifying things, but I really just need you to know what to do in an emergency, what to do if you see one of these hazards and where not to go. Where the nurse, where the nurse call. Yeah. Like that's what I need you to take away from this. Yeah. As much as I would love to also share my stories with you about other things. And our visions. And our values. And you just because they, you know, they write that. And a lot of people put a lot of work and passion into those inductions. And I definitely don't take away from that. There's some great work being done. I just challenge a challenge what your message is and what's the most valuable thing to take away at the end of that day or the end of that induction for that person? And if they can't answer the question of was it a man or a woman narrating, or was the screen black or white, then you've got a major problem. Yeah, yeah. Now, Josephine, can we take a little different tack? I wanna hear about the history of Josephine In just a few minutes. Like, what is it? Obviously, you're a leader in safety and in the construction industry. And I'm really interested to hear what got you interested. Well, you know, right from kind of the start of a little tour. My... I mean, I have no brothers. I went to an all girls Catholic school. My father is a paramedic. My mother's a nurse. So I have zero construction connection whatsoever. So, of course, I went and did nursing. So my first job was nursing. I was a nurse through ....an assistant nurse through high school. I eventually was put on a construction site as a nurse on a construction site. That was my first foray into into construction. I worked in rehab for a while when I was studying at university. What were you studying? Bachelor of Nursing. Yeah. Yeah. So I worked at a facility over in Ryde, which was a rehab facility for spinal and disabilities and head injuries. Mm hmm. It was interesting to be... I loved nursing. I really enjoyed it. But I had done a lot by the time I had finished because I had sort of started in that assistant space, which is your basic nursing, and then getting into R.N. So by the time I finished my actual degree, I kind of knew where that was going. And I got, I guess, to look at it from treating injuries that may have... have arisen in a workplace. And the treatment side of that, to looking at an industry that was looking at prevention. So for me, it was kind of a natural switch over from treating people to working into an industry that has you know, high, high number of injuries and some significant injuries and how you could work in trying to prevent that injury from occurring as opposed to treating that injury when it has occurred. So you worked back. That my little like flippo from nursing straight into construction. And then I was challenged by the manager who employed me to go. I put on my resume like I'll do a masters in occupational health and safety management systems. And I was like, because it looks good if you're at something on your resume like that. And he went, You sign up for that and I'll give you a job. So I signed up and went back to uni and did my masters and then worked in a book that was with Bill Corp and worked with them for ten years and Josephine and Tony, who were just wonderful people. So that was my step into construction and into safety and I've never really looked back. That's so interesting. So it's like you reverse engineered. You went from people who need the care, then worked back to where where was this problem coming from? Yeah, but it's really important to point out that caring back end of it, they make the best safety people. Right, right. Rob Long. I'll never forget Rob Long saying the best will be in the risk community, will be the schoolteacher, the nurse, etc. because they come from that caring background as opposed to somebody that comes from a compliance background or perhaps military or the like. Ahhhh, the penny's just dropped for me. Why... Why, Josephine, you have right from the start, when we spoke about Scratchie, you thought about it differently. She comes from care. Yeah, that's a this is where this is. Again, that question around ... I think diversity with untapped resources in different industries. That's a great segue to talk about diversity. I've got someone who works for me. He comes from a police force background. Yeah. And while that is compliance, right. His knowledge on chain of responsibility, emergency evacuation, investigations, talking to people diffusing situations. It's just so different to how we've done things in construction, you know, and we need to start looking outside of these, you know, pockets of construction experience and really going, well, what else is out there? Who else can we talk to? Who can bring something to the table in the lens? And getting diversity of backgrounds, diversity of gender, diversity of ethnicity. There's so much that needs to be done. So I think that bring benefit and a different lens to how we think. I know I can sit in meetings and often I might be the only woman depending on where it is and I can see everybody agreeing. And I'm just I'm on a different page sometimes because we just naturally think about things differently. Yeah. And I think that's really important, bringing that challenge into any workplace for anything. Totally. You mentioned before, actually, before we talk about imposter syndrome, can we just take one step back? You said there was a point where it looked good to put a masters on. Yes, absolutely. Talking with someone who said do it. Who was that person? Who was that? Someone to encourage you to. That was Cameron Powell, who I worked with at Buildcorp. He was the construction manager at the time, and he just said. You sign up for that and I'll give you a job. What a legend. And I was like, Oh, okay. I wasn't planning on that, but if you're going to make me... Well, Cameron Powell, I haven't met you. Here's a pretty big legend. I haven't seen him in many, many years, so shout out if you're there Cameron. But yeah, that's good. Anyone encouraging someone to take a leap like that is... and also having the right people to, like, believe in you like Tony and Josephine from Buildcorp took a... You know, they supported me, you know, they took a chance on me. I was the site nurse and then I was eventually their group safety manager. So, you know, without people that recognize you and support you and are really willing to put their their faith in you, it's sometimes hard to get ahead. And yet you can still have imposter syndrome. Yeah, well, nice. Buildcorp are a client of ours as well. So shout out to everyone at Buildcorp. They're fantastic Yeah. Talk, talk, talk about imposter syndrome. Oh, what is it... my personal? Do you feel it? Yeah. Yeah. Which I find remarkable, because you strike me as being someone so confident and. And knowledgeable in your area. But yet, tell us about it. Oh, look, I don't know where it comes from. I just know that it exists in me. And I guess I can come across confident. But you still always have that little bird on your shoulder that says, do you really understand? Like, do you really know this? Should you say that? Do you know enough about this to bring it up at the table? I think I can find I even after 20 years have found some of the. Meeting rooms I'm in to be, I guess not psychologically safe. Like, do I want to bring up this or am I going to get monstered? Now, that's probably a bit conditional in working in this industry because we're all high performers and we've all got opinions and we've all got something to say. And sometimes when you're robust, indeed they are robust conversations, but they can in some ways make you feel like you have to second guess it before it goes, before it leaves your mouth and goes onto the table. Now, luckily for me, most of it goes up to the table. Like it or lump it. But I still I still feel that. Oh, not really sure. You know, and I think that is something that I definitely work with other women in my my cohorts in industry to sort of say like, I feel that too, like you're not alone in this. This is quite, quite common for us. So what's the worst that can happen? Yeah. And I always try to remind myself, like, do you even remember like even this podcast? Can you actually remember all the things that was said in a previous podcast? Mm. No, I can't. Yeah. I remember which ones I've enjoyed or, you know, themes, but I can't remember if someone said something dumb. No. Right. It's picking up. It's, it's, it's usually the inverse isn't it. It is. You remember one or two good things. Yes. Sparked some thought. Yes. You know, and that's the point. That's the point of this. But is anyone actually going to go, God! Do you remember that time. You know what an idiot. True. But you still have that confidence. You feel that wavering confidence to sit down and do something. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting, I think. I mean, again, it seems like a balance thing if you're uber confident a little bit of imposter syndrome is probably a good thing. So it's grounding. How about you shut up for a second? You know, that sort of thing in your own mind? Yeah. And if you lack confidence, it's the opposite. So somewhere in the middle it's yeah. Yeah. And then you get the tall poppies; They get cut down, right. Yeah. So we're legendary at that in Australia. We are very good at it. And then you see it in construction a lot as well. And I see that sometimes with women in construction, if they're if they're strong and they're confident and they're not willing to waver well, for anyone, they can be cut down pretty quickly. Totally. Yeah. So for someone, if Alison is not from Australia, what is a tall poppy guys? Just an it's like someone that's kicking some goals is succeeding, succeeding, doing really well. Performer and who's loud? A loud high performer who tells people that they're a hot performer and we Aussies tend to want to cut them down. Oh mate. Yeah. They're the most annoying people in the room. Success. How dare you be successful? It's funny, you know, Californians just find that remarkable. They're like wait... – and just Americans generally – they just go, wait, what? I don't understand. It's like, I don't know whether it's part of our convict history. Yeah, convict history. That's it's there's a lot of. I don't know what it is, but it's. We want- It's just the Australian way to put shit on someone that's doing really well. And go yeah but you know he's a bit fat and he's Yeah. If he's seen he's, he's going gray. Yeah. You know there's a definite element- ...but his name's Elon Musk. Yeah, that's right. There's a definite element of that need to put out a bit of toxic banter and, and, and I'm on, I love banter. Oh, I've got a great I think I've got a great sense of humor, (tall poppy)... but there's an element in Australia where we just become toxic with it. You know, we make jokes, but they're really passive aggressive. That's true. And we're like, you know, someone to put out a put a lot of effort into a campaign and roll it out and then people just take absolute piss out of it. Just jump on LinkedIn. Yeah. Oh, well, that's the best place to see it; anyone that's doing really well just get smashed. I find LinkedIn to be quite intimidating because people are on there and they've got a brain and they are like, they're waiting for you to put out something and they can correct you on, right? Right. So I find that much more intimidating than throwing out something stupid on Facebook or Instagram because that's more of a world where it's just everyone's moving on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the the page warriors on LinkedIn, like, they don't create a place of psychological safety where you really feel like you can throw out a comment or an idea that you've got without someone having a real long shot at why you're wrong. Can we talk about psychological safety for a second? Like what is what is not enough of it and what is too much of it? So in other words, I'd love to color it in where not enough, is of course you just are getting slammed in a meeting and there's no way to deal with it. And that sort of thing. Too much though, we're minding our P's and Q's so much that all of the beautiful joy of free flowing conversation disappears because it's too sanitized. Where do you see it? What's the current situation in where should it be heading? It's a really tough one, I think, particularly in construction, right, because it can be loose. And what we talk about, we are trying to be better, but it's hard and it shouldn't be saying offensive things really shouldn't be that hard. But apparently it is. And we can be all guilty of maybe saying the wrong thing and doing the wrong thing at times. Good leadership, but without like you said, without having sanitized leadership. You know, I feel I feel sorry sometimes for our leaders because they are they do have to be beyond reproach at all times. That must be exhausting in this industry, surrounded by some of the people we're surrounded by. Right. And they have to mix it. So they're on site one minute having very robust conversations with people about what they're doing and how they're doing it. And then they're having to make sure that they're setting up environments that their staff and the people around them feel safe and secure to bring ideas to the table. I don't think anyone's really got that mix perfect. And I don't think I don't know if you ever will. I don't think that there's a manual. Yeah, I don't think there's an answer at the end of that. I think we just all have to work hard to make sure that we understand everybody's angle and where they sit and what makes them comfortable and get to know the people we work with and then just try very hard to work around where people sit. Hmm. But I don't think there's a magic answer to it. I mean, you look at the statistics on psychosocial injuries through in my email have done presentations before. It. It's just rising. It's like the number one rising injury, I think. Don't quote me on this. Anyone who's going to come on and I don't know the exact stats, but I know that it's absolutely just going up and up in worker's compensation and injury status, but we are becoming more sophisticated and we're becoming more inclusive and more diverse. And we're putting a lot of work, especially with the regulations now around, you know, being legally have to provide that that safe workplace. Is that because psychosocial injuries are subjective? I think so, yes. What what what upsets you versus what upsets me. But it's also almost like the back where you can't see the injury, you can't; it's not a broken arm. Do you really have a back injury? I'm not really sure if you have a back injury and mental health is the same. You can't tell, you can't see, you can't measure, you can't count the stitches. So there's this huge unknown around it. But the injuries are going up and the workplaces are, in my opinion, and the ones I work in getting better. Amazing. But there's no correlation between what we're doing to make it better and those injuries coming down that I can see. Hmm. So it's a minefield. It is. And I. As I said, I don't think there's an answer. I think we just have to continue on to try and try and and be inclusive, be respectful, have better conversations. Teach people more soft skills. Focus on soft skills, communication skills. You know that that's really important. It is. It gets down to free speech. I mean, it's a big, big topic right now. Right. And the fact that, you know, I would argue the three of us discussing you should have have the ability to say something that offends me. Yeah. So the like. Otherwise, we can't have conversations anymore. I listen to my dad. Oh, my God. That man is out of control. Yeah. The most offensive things. I'm like, oh, God, don't don't give him the microphone. But he's a big believer. Like, you should not be telling me what I can and can't say. I'm like I reckon someone should John pull that shit back. But, you know, he his generation and I know my mom's the same. Like, they think that they can say what they want to say it if it upsets you. Well, that's really it's on you. It's on you. Yeah. Do I agree with what they have to say? Not necessarily. But do I disagree with their right to say it? No. Yeah. Right. So I think that's that's a big it's a tough one. Yeah. And people won't agree with that. No. There's a lot of people that will absolutely just not agree with that. I've been in a workplace, actually, where you've got to mind your P's and Q's and mate, give me something that offends me any day. Yeah, I'm well into banter. So I think if I had to go back into the corporate landscape, I'd last a fortnight. And I. I don't know what it is. I kind of like it. Yeah, look, a part of me kind of likes the color of the joy of. Yeah, and the unknown. And I just. I like to laugh as well. Right. And I love working with like minded people that are quick and quick witted. And, you know, we have great conversations and people laugh and people laugh a lot. I really enjoy I get joy that sparks joy in me. Totally. Versus having to be very careful about what I say. But again, we have to draw a line and we have to be careful because there are people that will enjoy a level of conversation that I find uncomfortable. And that makes it that makes it dangerous because it's such a gray line. But I can imagine you in a situation where there's been a meeting and there's been someone that's been a bit victimized, you I I'm almost positive that you would go to them afterwards, even if you were not such a party to the conversation, put your arm around them and say, listen and just have a little debrief with them. Absolutely. Yeah. And so that still allows the robust discussion, but it's ensuring that individuals get managed, you know,

James Kell: now, Josephine, we've we know that time is short, so obviously we've got a lot more to talk about. We're going to have to put this podcast into two. So wrapping up this first part of the podcast, which has been so interesting, what are your thoughts on it in terms of safety in the industry? If you had and this is top of mind sort of stuff, this is not. Well, you know, I've thought about things and his, you know, a list of them just top of mind one or two things that the industry needs as soon as possible in order to genuinely improve safety in the industry. Ian. It's a big question, I guess. The reason I would be so passionate about that culture standard is I think it underpins the health and well-being of our people, our stakeholders. So the culture in what's it called again, on in culture, in... the Construction Industry Culture Taskforce and the culture standard that they have out in draft. Yeah, that for me really speaks to me, speaks to me from my nursing background. It speaks to me from my safety background as a parent, as as a wife and as a colleague, that if we were to get those pillars right and get this industry to really look hard at itself, and I'm really talking here about principal contractors as well, principal contractors reflecting on their the way in which we build and tender, the way in which we compete and the way in which we set up our construction sites. We would really to look at that and be reflective and make some big changes and some bold, brave changes to how we operate. That will I believe that will fundamentally change how construction gets performed. The culture will change. The attitudes will change the timeframes, the the pressures, the health of people, the wellbeing of people and the family settings. You know, time for life is not just about. Parents. It's not at all. It's about everyone regenerating and renewing themselves. But we have a lot of broken families. We have a lot of, you know, suicide. We have a lot of problems. We have to reflectively do something to actively influence that. So for me, if I was going to get anything, it would be if you could get every builder to really embrace that standard and challenge themselves to implement it across projects bravely. I think you would see huge change in this industry. What a great way to finish off this first part of the podcast. You speak so well. Oh, bless. Thank you, Josephine. And yeah, it's it's it's a pleasure knowing you and continuing to work with you. I don't know if you've got any closing, but I just want to thank Josephine again. It's great to see your lovely face in here. And you know, we have to get you back really soon and and go to part B, so thank you. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much. I.

James Kell: This is James Kell, co-founder of. Hello, this is James Kell, co-founder of Scratchy, the rewards platform for the Workplace. Hello. This is James Kell from Scratchy. The only on the spot categorized rewards platform for safety. Hello this is James Kell from scratchy scratchy dot com offers instant on the spot rewards for safe work in the workplace. Hello, this is James Kell, co-founder of Scratchy Scratches, a platform that rewards workers that encourages workers to be safe in the workplace. Today we have Josephine Taylor. Josephine Taylor is a senior leader in safety at John Holland, one of Australia's very few tier one construction companies. And Josephine is a real warrior. A leader really embraced the concept of safe, sketchy, I should say, early on, really embraced the concept of Scratchy early on. And. And interestingly, Josephine comes from a nursing background. So she comes she's sort of reverse engineered from looking after people who might have suffered a workplace injury right back to the source. And she finds herself in construction. So a wonderful person. Really interesting podcast. Josephine Taylor. Hello, this is James Kell, co-founder of Scratchie. We have Gary Mansfield here, my co-founder today, and we're talking with Josephine Taylor. Josephine is a senior leader in John Holland, one of Australia's largest construction companies, a Tier one construction company. They build billion dollar plus infrastructure and other massive projects in Australia. Josephine is a real warrior and an innovator and in the early days of Scratchie showed us a lot of support because she really believed in the concept of encouraging workers to work safely. She wanted to see more of that and she wasn't afraid to let that be known in her in her workplace and dealt with a lot of headwinds for that. So we really love Josephine, and this is an hour of a really great discussion. Please enjoy. Here we go. Josephine Taylor.

James Kell: So there you have it. Josephine Taylor, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. And wide ranging discussion, right, from incentivizing and rewarding and encouraging safety, safety two, to the cultural changes happening in the industry that Josephine supports so strongly. there'll be another part to this because there's a lot more to discuss with Josephine. So thank you for listening. And if you ever have any questions about Scratchie and encouraging safety in your workplace, please get in touch with us. hello@scratchie.com or you can email me james@scratchie.com.